39 replies to this topic

[FenixStryk]

As long as where my bullets appear to be going is where my bullets are actually going, I'm okay with the system. I've been led to believe that this implies server-side rendering, so... let's go with that.

[shosca]

Isn't there a way to disable traces_ You could at least do that for now if the traces are confusing you. I thought there was a gfx option for that, particles or something.

But the idea that the client side rendered traces having an effect on hitreg and shots is ridiculous.

Edited by shosca, June 11 2014 - 04:37 AM.

[Spliff_Craven]

Client Side = You see the shots {visual lag reduced}
Then that information gets sent to the server
Server Side = The information from target and attacker are consolidated results are sent back to players{Actual physical response to players actions}

Result:

Server is out of phase with what players see therefore you miss or shoot through the target. This ends up in player frustration due to seeing visual hits {initial clientside visual} "missing" {consolidated then serverside data}.

Tracers themselves aren't an issue. It is the inaccuracy of what they represent that is.
If your shots had no tracers you couldn't tell if it was you that was missing or lag being the problem, etc. Tracers provide valuable information to a player as to where to place their next shot or whether or not they are ghosting through a perceived target resulting in a miss.

The problem people are having is where the client data is sent to server and returned. It is not matching accurately with what people see. and with ping values having variability there is no way for the player to consistently compensate for the lag spikes. It ihis lack of consistency and synchronicity is the core issue.

Edited by Spliff_Craven, June 11 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[RunaPanda]

reVelske, on June 10 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Next up, someone comes in and start explaining how the internet and undersea cables work, because we are clearly throwing a shitfit over dolphins sabotaging our communication infrastructures therefore causing us to miss in Hawken.

JokeSeriousness aside, coldform covered it perfectly, we prefer for the visual to match up with the server-side data.

I personally haven't had any form of problem in getting my shots to hit, mainly due to ignoring the tracer because I know it's a visual special effect to show that i have shot, it's nothing more nothing less. Most gamers who play on a purely competitive level or those who are professionals, don't care about the tracer they just watch for a health reduction or a sign sent by the server saying that you've hit.

[reVelske]

In case I haven't emphasized, I play with 200ms+.

Not everyone lives in US/EU.

[RunaPanda]

reVelske, on June 11 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

In case I haven't emphasized, I play with 200ms+.

Not everyone lives in US/EU.

Higher ping higher compensation time. The tracer is nothing more than a visual effect for you to see. Most chalk tracers up as a visual gimmick to add visual flare to a game.

[Terr_]

Spliff_Craven, on June 08 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Trying to come across an article referring directly to the gaming aspect of this phenomenon; all I could come up with was this: http://openmymind.ne...Side-Rendering/

Whoah, careful, the stuff in that article is totally unrelated to to the technologies and tradeoffs in Hawken or similar games. Speaking as someone who does program with that web-stuff for a living, I strongly suggest you edit it out, before it spreads unnecessary confusion.

When it comes to games, the big differences are more in the style of:

• Which computer decides the "true path and position" of a missile_ Does the "true position" of the missile compared to the one on your screen_
  
• Is there a delay before you see the missile pop into existence, or does it show up immediately and instead other people see it pop into existence further along_
  
• If there's a discrepancy, how is that handled_ Does it gradually "wander" into the right spot
  
• For a spray of bullets, are the tracers accurate_ If they aren't, is that really a problem, given that you don't have any control over the random spread anyway_ You'll still want to aim at the same spot.

Edited by Terr_, June 12 2014 - 06:36 PM.

[Spliff_Craven]

Terr_, on June 12 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Spliff_Craven, on June 08 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Trying to come across an article referring directly to the gaming aspect of this phenomenon; all I could come up with was this: http://openmymind.ne...Side-Rendering/

Whoah, careful, the stuff in that article is totally unrelated to to the technologies and tradeoffs in Hawken or similar games. Speaking as someone who does program with that web-stuff for a living, I strongly suggest you edit it out, before it spreads unnecessary confusion.

When it comes to games, the big differences are more in the style of:

• Which computer decides the "true path and position" of a missile_ Does the "true position" of the missile compared to the one on your screen_
  
• Is there a delay before you see the missile pop into existence, or does it show up immediately and instead other people see it pop into existence further along_
  
• If there's a discrepancy, how is that handled_ Does it gradually "wander" into the right spot
  
• For a spray of bullets, are the tracers accurate_ If they aren't, is that really a problem, given that you don't have any control over the random spread anyway_ You'll still want to aim at the same spot.

Great questions... But I need to replace it with a better link; If you got one I'll gladly substitute it. As I had mentioned:

Quote

Trying to come across an article referring directly to the gaming aspect of this phenomenon; all I could come up with was this http://openmymind.ne...Side-Rendering/

It was the best I could provide. Please provide me better.

Better yet... DEV'S!
Could you answer the questions proposed in the above quote_

[Terr_]

Spliff_Craven, on June 13 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

But I need to replace it with a better link [...] Please provide me better.

I'll keep an eye out for something that applies to Unreal Engine 3, but perhaps I wasn't clear:

That particular link is worse than nothing.

I mean that literally.

Edited by Terr_, June 13 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[AnotherWastedLife]

Couldn't they just make it a personal option in the settings_  Leave it the way it is by default because it looks better for the casuals who need to be impressed by pretty colours.
I know I would activate the SSR option, because it would be a constant and useful reminder for me that hit-check is NOT done on MY screen. (Which is also possible.)

Edited by AnotherWastedLife, June 14 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Spliff_Craven]

AnotherWastedLife, on June 14 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Couldn't they just make it a personal option in the settings_  Leave it the way it is by default because it looks better for the casuals who need to be impressed by pretty colours.
I know I would activate the SSR option, because it would be a constant and useful reminder for me that hit-check is NOT done on MY screen. (Which is also possible.)

I don't now if it's practical to make it an on/off item.

[Rajitha]

I think client side rendering might be better, check this http://programmers.s...ide-programming

ctrl+f "gaming" and read that post

[Terr_]

Rajitha: That really has nothing to do with the issue. Partly because the original "question" in the thread is horribly misleading.

Edited by Terr_, June 16 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Spliff_Craven]

Until someone can provide better this is what we have.

UNLESS... The dev's want to step in here and throw us a bone..._

[Spliff_Craven]

I take it the dev's have no opinion_

[THE_oldy]

But if you can't see the lag maybe we can all pretend it doesn't exist_

Its annoying that more modern FPSs are trying to sweep lag under the rug. Having an option for an on-HUD lag-o-meter seems to be an unthinkable thing now. Heaven forbid being able to assess the state of your connection on the fly, nope, judging the lag spikes purely by how badly you feel your getting ripped off makes for a much more 'seamless experience' apparently.

Take quake live for example, the lighting gun, a rapid fire hitscan weapon with a distinctive 'shaft' of lighting (equivalent to bullets tracers in this discussion). There is a client side variable you can adjust, 0%-100%, that controls 'how client side' the lighting shaft is animated. (Interestingly 100% server side isn't favored by most players) Having advanced options like this buried in sub-menus couldn't possibly scare away casuals, but does go along way to holding onto the hardcore player base.

In regards to OP's poll, ultimately we can all just make do with the hit markers, but the ultimate solution would be default client side animations with options for server side adjusted animations.

[THE_oldy]

But if you can't see the lag maybe we can all pretend it doesn't exist_

Its annoying that more modern FPSs are trying to sweep lag under the rug. Having an option for an on-HUD lag-o-meter seems to be an unthinkable thing now. Heaven forbid being able to assess the state of your connection on the fly, nope, judging the lag spikes purely by how badly you feel your getting ripped off makes for a much more 'seamless experience' apparently.

Take quake live for example, the lighting gun, a rapid fire hitscan weapon with a distinctive 'shaft' of lighting (equivalent to bullets tracers in this discussion). There is a client side variable you can adjust, 0%-100%, that controls 'how client side' the lighting shaft is animated. (Interestingly 100% server side isn't favored by most players) Having advanced options like this buried in sub-menus couldn't possibly scare away casuals, but does go along way to holding onto the hardcore player base.

In regards to OP's poll, ultimately we can all just make do with the hit markers, but the ultimate solution would be default client side animations with options for server side adjusted animations.

[Spliff_Craven]

I see the votes sharply lean towards the serverside rendering...

[caduceus26]

EliteShooter, on June 09 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Yes, before; damageless shots never existed, and things were smooth as honey!!

I'm going to assume that this comment was made in jest. Otherwise, not true.  I (and others) posted about this problem many months ago--well before the rendering change was made.

[Barbie_in_a_Mech]

I didn't notice this thread getting bumped recently.  Cool.  I didn't even know the opinion was so strong for server side.

It makes it even harder for me to understand why they went with client side rendering.

I've been meaning to ask if there is a way to edit some files to put a delay on our shots, but I'm absolutely certain that it's not possible, because if it was, it would have been talked about already.