56 replies to this topic

[Xpander]

Let me preface this by saying: I love this Hawken's game feel. This is the only f2p game that I've ever payed money for, and I would have loved to continue putting money into it. Were things even better before Ascension_ Maybe. But, given the current mechanics and aesthetic designs, plus a deeper field/diversity of players, I could keep playing this game for ages. Real talk.

But, you seem to have a problem with retaining and by now, gaining players. I don't know what's going on in the background, but I'm taking a wild guess that the player adoption and retention aren't where we'd all like it to be. A friend and I who both love Hawken are UX designers by training and we agonize over what we're seeing, because we want to see Hawken succeed and there is so much non-technical, non-gameplay issues related that's causing damage. I am imploring you to take a deeper look, not at balance or technical issues, but at the user experience, interface design, and information architecture of Hawken.

First off: onboarding.

Onboarding is a problem in Hawken. The Hawken experience can be pretty intimidating for the new player. I appreciate the humor behind Fred, I do. But, you're leaving new players with what can often look like a joke mech. What do they then get to deal with_ Mobs of advanced players zooming around in either super fast or hulk looking death machines. You can't expect someone new to know that their TV-bot actually is competitive against everything else; expectations count.

The basic VR training doesn't do much of a job preparing the new player for combat situations. It in fact bugged out so that I could never complete it. Bot deathmatches are decent preparation tools, but the players aren't ushered through them. Instead, they're guided towards playing Team Deathmatch, which is much more unforgiving, especially now. So now the only clear way the new player can progress is to try to fight through servers full of players who are now likely to be much better than they are, with nothing but Fred. On top of it, there's little to educate them or get them used to clear ways to progress and improve.  

Second: the information architecture/usability.

The way that Hawken presents information is a mess. The way game types are presented almost completely fail to reflect the difference in difficulty and strategy required. The garage and market dichotomy is almost completely unnecessary. The match completion screen is overwrought with data presented in inefficient tabs which few people are going to bother reading through, tying into server killing wait times. It's a struggle to compare and understand the differences between different mechs and weapons, in which players are expected to invest time and money in. All this means the confusion extends to basic and power-user functions.

This is leaving the players in a confused state outside of actual matches.

Last issue: the monetization model.

Look, I don't think Hawken is pay-to-win, and I can't claim to have visibility to the business decisions being made behind the scenes. But, most of your monetization model screams ARPPU/bean counter-gone-wild.  As an example: I invested $40 into your high-value steam bundles, costing me the price of several steam games and technically making me a whale by many free-to-play gaming metrics. The fact that after this purchase I have: not all the mechs, less than half of the weapons, no items nor internals, and next to no cosmetics, is striking. If that's what I feel like, consider what the new player with nothing feels like. Your test drives feel just like it's called, a loaner. It's not going to replace the feeling of ownership and buy-in that the new player has to wade through the above issues just to get a taste of.

All these things adds up to an environment that's pointlessly confusing and discouraging. This is a massive pitfall when it's much easier for a new player to turn off or uninstall the game rather than figure out how it works. I know you guys have technical issues to fix, but for the love of all that is Hawken, look into fixing these, generally non-technical issues before it's too late. I've a whole smattering of potential solutions, but like any good UX work, it means nothing without further understanding of the data and audience research behind the curtains.

Please consider this rather urgent plea. Thank you.

[Spliff_Craven]

Well addressed.

Quote

{onboarding}

The TV Mech {Fred} is a front line mech and doesn't look "cool" until you played the game for awhile.

Playing TDM is not a good way of getting the players to enjoy the team dynamics. Siege or MA do a much better job of teamwork.
Have you noticed the majority of matches are DM and TDM_
Players don't stay if they get constantly stomped or feel there is a insurmountable learning curve to enjoying the game.
TDM is just too deathbally. MA not so much...

Quote

{Architecture/useability}

Too much clutter. Pre-Ascension was better.
If anything group the mechs by Class {A/B/C} or subtype support/assault/sniper/etc...
Allow Mechs to be sold. This allows people to get rid of doubles and such.

Quote

{Monetization}

Agreed it needs an overhaul.
It would be better to charge less per item to get people to spend more.
We are talking like 1 dollar or less per item etc...

Edited by Spliff_Craven, August 13 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[mittens800]

Yeah it's intimidating for new players but what game isn't_

Probably the reason that Hawken could get more frustrating is the longer TTK than COD.
At least you can one shot someone in COD and get that rush.  In Hawken, you might never get that because you will get stomped.

Here's my suggestions:

There should be at least a free bot area where you can try ALL MECHS and ALL WEAPONS (and ITEMS) to see what they do.
Also all of the damage and stats should be listed in the game or on the site instead of stupid meaningless points.
They are so freaking expensive.  I started a smurf and put in probably 10 hours so far.  I have 12K HC.  WTF I can't buy anything.
They did manage to get the grind down, I'm level 15 on it.  Took months to get to level 30 before...

You should start with 3 mechs.  If I could I would get rid of Fred but now he's legacy and you need to keep him.  Start with CRT, Zerker or Scout, and Vanguard or Brawler.  To a certain extent this is mitigated by the test drives, but it would really be nice to have one basic mech in A B and C class.

And lastly, put in some videos showing some good players in actual games and what they are doing and explaining what they are doing.
Also maybe some basic Hawken strategies in different game modes.
That should help.

After that, if you're not bothering to learn the game don't blame anyone else...

[AsianJoyKiller]

Very nice write-up Xpander. I completely agree.

mittens800, on August 13 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Yeah it's intimidating for new players but what game isn't_

There are plenty of games, free-to-play and otherwise, that don't have so many readability and usability issues.
I'll stick to F2P games in examples because single player, paid games tend to be better in general.

Right off the bat Marvel Heroes and SMITE come to mind, because I play them often. Tribes: Ascend was similar to SMITE, as you may expect being that they're both developed by HiRez. Defiance was pretty good, because even thought the UI could be confusing, it does a decent job of walking you through all the necessary details and getting you to practice using it in small, easy to understand portions. DCUO, like Defiance, can be a bit much, but again like Defiance, walks you through the details at nice pace. Neverwinter launches a ridiculous amount of information at you, more than Hawken, but does a better job at helping you navigate it.

Quote

There should be at least a free bot area where you can try ALL MECHS and ALL WEAPONS (and ITEMS) to see what they do.
Also all of the damage and stats should be listed in the game or on the site instead of stupid meaningless points.

Yes. Definately. Absolutely. 100% with you.

Quote

They are so freaking expensive.  I started a smurf and put in probably 10 hours so far.  I have 12K HC.  WTF I can't buy anything.
They did manage to get the grind down, I'm level 15 on it.  Took months to get to level 30 before...

I see a lot of vets say it isn't so bad. But part of the problem is, even when we create smurfs, we dominate. We do so, so, sooo much better than your average player. We gain HC at a rate that most average players don't.

Sure. I can make 12k HC in about 3-5 hours. But how likely is a newer player going to be able to do that_

And they don't even have the luxury of knowing what to spend their money on like we do. We know what mechs, items and internals are duds, and which ones are BiS. New players don't. They can easily blow thousands of HC on something that is useless for them. That increases the grind, and kills the fun.

Those first few hours_ Those are when you hook people. That's when they decide when they're going to quit or keep playing. And if they're getting frustrated by the prices and lack of information, that's not a good thing.

Quote

You should start with 3 mechs.  If I could I would get rid of Fred but now he's legacy and you need to keep him.  Start with CRT, Zerker or Scout, and Vanguard or Brawler.  To a certain extent this is mitigated by the test drives, but it would really be nice to have one basic mech in A B and C class.

It would be nice.

Quote

And lastly, put in some videos showing some good players in actual games and what they are doing and explaining what they are doing. Also maybe some basic Hawken strategies in different game modes.

This is something I love about SMITE. They have these sorts of videos and streams built right into the main menu UI.
Imagine if you hopped into Hawken and right off the bat the game advertised you to watch Xacius, or another popular player, streaming. Or head to the media tab and you can see all sorts of instructional videos by veteran players. That's what it's like.

[Fstroke]

You make a few very good points but I completely disagree on the monetization. The only mistake they make here is how its presented. I had one guy the other day (likely a complete moron, moving on) complaining that his free mech couldnt compete with all the paid mechs. He was even in a rocketeer not a crt. When I tried to explain to him that they are all free there was a lot of confusion and he thought I was lying (or just continuing to make excuses).

In your case you paid into one of those entry bundles for a collection of in game things. You likely got a deal too compared if you were to buy them all individually.

Thing is you cant compare f2p to paid titles. Over time f2p games have the potential to have much more content than paid titles. That and paid games have a tendency to make you pay 60 dollars for their game, then 10-15 for each of the 4 or 5 expansions they come out with later.

PC games are a whole other issue but try comparing to a very successful f2p in league of legends and see how far $40 gets you

[Alpha86]

I completely agree with the need for more than just the basic VR training.
When I first started the game, I probably died at least 10 times in each TDM because I had no idea how to fight 1v1 or in CQC; the VR training only teaches you key bindings.

Whenever I come across a new player I always see the same thing: They stand still for WAY too long and we all know that a still mech is a dead mech.

I also completely agree with items and mechs being too expensive. There have been a few times now where I said to myself "I want that mech/item, but I really don't feel like putting in hours and hours of playtime just for one item. Then after that, I'm back to <1000 HC".

Luckily for me, at the moment I don't have much else to do in my free time so I play HAWKEN.
I've voiced my opinion on the HC grind as I'm sure everybody else has as well. Things need to be cheaper.
When players are constantly grinding away, the fun starts to disappear.

Edited by Alpha86, August 13 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[nokari]

You make some fair points, but as someone who also works in UI/UX, I'm reading a lot of opinion and conjecture out of your assessment rather than reasoning and facts.

Xpander, on August 13 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

But, you seem to have a problem with retaining and by now, gaining players. I don't know what's going on in the background, but I'm taking a wild guess that the player adoption and retention aren't where we'd all like it to be.

Retention is an issue being caused by multiple factors. The greatest violators are mainly:

1) Match balance. It is common for fairly new players to experience a stomp by a higher skilled player(s) in almost every game. Over time this annoys and frustrates players, because it's basically a fuzzy bunny shoot of "who gets the best player on their team". Nobody likes getting pounded game after game for long.

2) Functional blockers, including but not limited to: broken voice chatting, no map option, unable to switch sides prior to match start, unnecessary long wait times between matches, etc.

3) Performance issues. Nobody enjoys having to deal with constant lag where their game experience can't perform as quickly and accurately as their hand-eye coordination does.

4) Lacking choices from the get go. Most games at least give you the option to pick between 2-5 choices to start without a time limit, such as a hero class or a starting weapon upgrade. This game contains many different mechs that work for different play styles, however players don't get to experience them until they've struggled awhile with a gimmicky looking mech that some people frankly hate. Customizations are locked for several levels as well.

Quote

First off: onboarding.

What do they then get to deal with_ Mobs of advanced players zooming around in either super fast or hulk looking death machines. You can't expect someone new to know that their TV-bot actually is competitive against everything else; expectations count.

Having recently started on a new account a few weeks ago, I can tell you that this was not my experience. It wasn't until 4 or 5 matches that saw anyone using something other than Fred and those that were were using test drives, which were also available to me. I was never unaware that I could use something other than Fred and didn't expect other people to only use Fred either. Stats are in the garage for each mech, though they could potentially be made more evident to point out that there are pros and cons to each.

Quote

The basic VR training doesn't do much of a job preparing the new player for combat situations. It in fact bugged out so that I could never complete it.

It's "okay" for learning the utmost basic basics and could certainly use some improvements. This also goes back to the problem of functional issues within the game.

Quote

Bot deathmatches are decent preparation tools, but the players aren't ushered through them. Instead, they're guided towards playing Team Deathmatch, which is much more unforgiving, especially now.

I have an issue with this statement. A bot deathmatch is an option and not a precursor to multiplayer. I was readily able to fight against other players immediately. Secondly, a team deathmatch is MORE forgiving than any deathmatch, due to their lack of several kinds of strategies that can be utilized with teams and have no supportive roles.

Quote

So now the only clear way the new player can progress is to try to fight through servers full of players who are now likely to be much better than they are, with nothing but Fred. On top of it, there's little to educate them or get them used to clear ways to progress and improve.

The vast majority of people I played with and against were all around the same level. I, among a handful of individuals, were the only outliers who were much higher skilled. Excluding us, score-wise the first 20 or so matches I played had fairly balanced scores on both sides. Secondly, I could afford to buy at least 1 different mech from Fred after only 1 hour of play thanks to the free MC achievement.

Education is a difficult topic that can't really be tackled well within game or will be listened to. They could provide some tips like "Listen to your teammates. Working together is the best way to success!", but not a significant lesson.
I'm curious what you mean by progression though. Everything is lateral progression in the game, so the only type of improvements one can have are skill-based and finding what combinations of mechs/equipment suite your play style. If you mean progressing in levels/mech ranks, they do give info. I'm not sure if they are providing significant, clear info to a brand new user though, because I'm already too experienced. Would need unbiased input from fresh players.

Quote

Second: the information architecture/usability.

The way that Hawken presents information is a mess. The way game types are presented almost completely fail to reflect the difference in difficulty and strategy required.

I'd say yes and no. Unless you are new to gaming in general, everyone is familiar with the differences between a deathmatch and a team deathmatch. The oddballs are MA and Siege. I think a short intro trailer in the match selection screen could alleviate confusion for those two.

Strategy is also not a clear subject. You cannot define XYZ strategies should be used when the reality is that you must be adaptive to multiple and varying strategies from one match to another. The difficulty is not in the game types, it is in who you play with and against.

Quote

The garage and market dichotomy is almost completely unnecessary.

Agreed. I never thought the market was necessary or wanted by the community. At best we expected it to be something else.

Quote

The match completion screen is overwrought with data presented in inefficient tabs which few people are going to bother reading through, tying into server killing wait times. It's a struggle to compare and understand the differences between different mechs and weapons, in which players are expected to invest time and money in. All this means the confusion extends to basic and power-user functions.

I agree that it is cluttered with information that could be distilled, removed, or presented at a different time and location. This is also part of why the end match time is as long as it is. They try to give players more time so they can review a large amount of info.

Quote

This is leaving the players in a confused state outside of actual matches.

I don't think that's true. The results of a match are quite clear. Winners vs losers, who scored higher and how much. Who was MVP, had most kills, most assists, and how you performed are clear and present. It's the other information, such as level/mech progression that is overwrought with info and IMO shouldn't be presented first. The game results should be.

[Silk_Sk]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 13 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Sure. I can make 12k HC in about 3-5 hours. But how likely is a newer player going to be able to do that_

Okay, that's BS. In order to accomplish something close to that, you'll need to not play at all until about 2 hours before the daily rewards  reset themselves, purchase an HC booster, win one of every game mode in those two hours, then win one of every game mode again after the reset. That way you MIGHT get 12k HC in a matter of hours but it requires you to spend money, and then find some skilled friends to play Co-Op bot destruction with. Not to mention the fact that you can only do that once every two days and you can't play at all after the next reset if you want to do it again. It's un-fun try-hard farming and absolutely not something you can do just by playing well for 3-5 hours.

Without buying a booster or minding the reset, 3-5 hours of play could get you around 4k assuming you get every daily reward. Realistically, a dedicated player who isn't farming can get around 2k for that amount of play time.

Edited by Silk_Sk, August 13 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silk_Sk, on August 13 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 13 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Sure. I can make 12k HC in about 3-5 hours. But how likely is a newer player going to be able to do that_

Okay, that's BS. In order to accomplish something close to that, you'll need to not play at all until about 2 hours before the daily rewards  reset themselves, purchase an HC booster, win one of every game mode in those two hours, then win one of every game mode again after the reset. That way you MIGHT get 12k HC in a matter of hours but it requires you to spend money, and then find some skilled friends to play Co-Op bot destruction with. Not to mention the fact that you can only do that once every two days and you can't play at all after the next reset if you want to do it again. It's un-fun try-hard farming and absolutely not something you can do just by playing well for 3-5 hours.

Without buying a booster or minding the reset, 3-5 hours of play could get you around 4k assuming you get every daily reward. Realistically, a dedicated player who isn't farming can get around 2k for that amount of play time.

Are you accounting for the first time achievement bonuses_ I probably should have clarified that. Once those are gone, yeah, I definitely would not be making that much HC in that time. After that, things slow down drastically and punish new players even harder for every mistaken purchase they make.

[Xpander]

Lots of good points and some points of misunderstanding (probably miscommunicated on my part) which I will respond to tomorrow.

Devs. Please message me if you're interested in discussing this in person.

[EM1O]

IRC would prolly get you a much faster response.
just sayin'.

[Daronicus]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 13 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Quote

They are so freaking expensive.  I started a smurf and put in probably 10 hours so far.  I have 12K HC.  WTF I can't buy anything.
They did manage to get the grind down, I'm level 15 on it.  Took months to get to level 30 before...

I see a lot of vets say it isn't so bad. But part of the problem is, even when we create smurfs, we dominate. We do so, so, sooo much better than your average player. We gain HC at a rate that most average players don't.

Sure. I can make 12k HC in about 3-5 hours. But how likely is a newer player going to be able to do that_

And they don't even have the luxury of knowing what to spend their money on like we do. We know what mechs, items and internals are duds, and which ones are BiS. New players don't. They can easily blow thousands of HC on something that is useless for them. That increases the grind, and kills the fun.

I just have to comment on this one.  I started a smurf to do some economy testing and show a friend the ropes without diving headfirst into high-tier lobbies (everyone who thinks that MergMerg was hacking can sit back down now).  The grind is awful.  Like, I remember it not being that bad, but having gone back and doing it from scratch, it takes way too long to get stuff.  And that's with me knowing exactly what items and internals I wanted.  But I can't even get those items or internals without spending real cash because it takes a pretty long time to reach level 30, honestly.  And again, that's with me doing really well and getting at least 300 xp each match.

It really made me reconsider the arguments that a lot of veterans make:  that items and internals don't affect your performance that much.  They absolutely do.  It's honestly kind of a big deal.  I'm not even talking about the big, obvious one in the air compressor, either.  I just could not play with the same style and performance without that armor fusor giving me a bit of a cushion.  I died a lot more frequently before I could afford that repair charge.  Seriously, take all the items and internals off of your mech, save the starting one.  Play a couple matches.  If you don't get frustrated pretty quickly by situations that you otherwise would have survived, I'll be shocked.

I can sort of see the level grind taking a while and metering out these things you can get as a learning curve and not throwing everything at the player at once (though it encourages players to buy "basic" level internals and Mk-I items which then get replaced with higher tier items, so they're spending their credits twice).  But I think the HC grind is incredibly steep.

I honestly think a better way of doing it would be to make mechs more expensive and then make items and internals dirt cheap.  Like, I'm talking 50-100 HC.  Buying a mech and equipping it with gear should be an exciting event, not a groan-worthy affair where you have to spend more on the parts than on the mech itself.  It's frustrating to buy a mech and get all happy and eager to try it only to be let down when you have to grind out several thousand more HC just to get the thing to competition-ready status.  And that's not even going into the question that I don't think should ever be asked:  "Should I buy X internal/item or a new mech_"  Like, how lame does that sound_


Edit:  As a disclaimer, this is from the perspective of someone who has spent a bunch of money on the game.  Undoubtedly, this colors my expectations about how long the grind should take.

Edit2:  Also, in terms of incentives for making the grind a little less substantial, if people have more mechs, that's more mechs they'll want customized.  I mean, if you only have two mechs, you spend the money and customize those and then you don't have anything else to spend money on.  If you have four, though, that's double the things to spend money on!

Edited by [HFC]Daronicus, August 13 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[Alpha86]

^I agree with above, and thats my biggest gripe with the game. The grind to get HC credits. It doesn't seem right that it costs nearly as much to purchase a weapon as it does some of the cheaper mechs.

Sidenote: Assuming the devs read these forums regularly and will see this one, will they actually be taking everything mentioned here into consideration_ I only ask because I haven't been around as long as some of you, so I haven't been able to compare old hawken to present hawken.

[Infyrno]

I agree with everything in this post, nothing else to say about it and I'm too lazy to modify quotes and whatnot lol.  But i think a major factor is the fact that items are so gosh darn expensive.  Seriously, i never buy items, and rarely buy internals.  Internals i think are fairly priced but items_ Uh uh

[Xacius]

Excellent write-up.

[Spliff_Craven]

EM1O, on August 13 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

IRC would prolly get you a much faster response.
just sayin'.

I doubt it...

The Cockpit on Twitch really hasn't got attention either.

Bottom line we want substance to our questions; not wishy washy answers.
Too much secrecy. Not enough transparency.
If we are in this together bring us up to speed.

[Muffintrumpet]

good write-up; may not agree with every specific point but the gist is sound

the biggest turn-off in this game is the grind, or more specifically the many newbie-traps that lie in wait: there is no way to recover from an uninformed purchase, i.e., the kind of purchase that most if not all newbies will end up making
if purchases could be returned and refunded at 100% cost less 10% per hour of practical use then newbies might be allowed to experiment a little, and find their way through the game that way
presently they just get trapped, become fed up, then leave

[shosca]

[HFC]Daronicus, on August 13 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

I just have to comment on this one.  I started a smurf to do some economy testing and show a friend the ropes without diving headfirst into high-tier lobbies (everyone who thinks that MergMerg was hacking can sit back down now).  The grind is awful.  Like, I remember it not being that bad, but having gone back and doing it from scratch, it takes way too long to get stuff.  And that's with me knowing exactly what items and internals I wanted.  But I can't even get those items or internals without spending real cash because it takes a pretty long time to reach level 30, honestly.  And again, that's with me doing really well and getting at least 300 xp each match.

It really made me reconsider the arguments that a lot of veterans make:  that items and internals don't affect your performance that much.  They absolutely do.  It's honestly kind of a big deal.  I'm not even talking about the big, obvious one in the air compressor, either.  I just could not play with the same style and performance without that armor fusor giving me a bit of a cushion.  I died a lot more frequently before I could afford that repair charge.  Seriously, take all the items and internals off of your mech, save the starting one.  Play a couple matches.  If you don't get frustrated pretty quickly by situations that you otherwise would have survived, I'll be shocked.

I can sort of see the level grind taking a while and metering out these things you can get as a learning curve and not throwing everything at the player at once (though it encourages players to buy "basic" level internals and Mk-I items which then get replaced with higher tier items, so they're spending their credits twice).  But I think the HC grind is incredibly steep.

I honestly think a better way of doing it would be to make mechs more expensive and then make items and internals dirt cheap.  Like, I'm talking 50-100 HC.  Buying a mech and equipping it with gear should be an exciting event, not a groan-worthy affair where you have to spend more on the parts than on the mech itself.  It's frustrating to buy a mech and get all happy and eager to try it only to be let down when you have to grind out several thousand more HC just to get the thing to competition-ready status.  And that's not even going into the question that I don't think should ever be asked:  "Should I buy X internal/item or a new mech_"  Like, how lame does that sound_


Edit:  As a disclaimer, this is from the perspective of someone who has spent a bunch of money on the game.  Undoubtedly, this colors my expectations about how long the grind should take.

Edit2:  Also, in terms of incentives for making the grind a little less substantial, if people have more mechs, that's more mechs they'll want customized.  I mean, if you only have two mechs, you spend the money and customize those and then you don't have anything else to spend money on.  If you have four, though, that's double the things to spend money on!

The last time I've calculated, you needed to have played over ~600 hours of "match" time to be able to unlock all the mechs with alt weapons and with "correct/optimal" internals. Assuming you play 2 hours every day, about 1.5 hours of match time, that's about a little more than a year.

[DM30]

On the topic of the HC grind, I think it would probably be a little bit easier to stomach if double HC weekends and promo codes were still a regular thing. I don't recal any weekend events happening in a long time, which seems dumb to me because aside from helping lessen the grind, they actually incentivized people to, you know, PLAY more, which seems like it can only be a good thing.

Even with that, though, I'm totally with Daronicus in that the choice between a mech or a weapon purchase being such a major decision is just plain rediculous, and is one of the things that I've wanted addressed for AGES.

[zorin1]

[HFC]Daronicus, on August 13 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 13 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Quote

They are so freaking expensive.  I started a smurf and put in probably 10 hours so far.  I have 12K HC.  WTF I can't buy anything.
They did manage to get the grind down, I'm level 15 on it.  Took months to get to level 30 before...

I see a lot of vets say it isn't so bad. But part of the problem is, even when we create smurfs, we dominate. We do so, so, sooo much better than your average player. We gain HC at a rate that most average players don't.

Sure. I can make 12k HC in about 3-5 hours. But how likely is a newer player going to be able to do that_

And they don't even have the luxury of knowing what to spend their money on like we do. We know what mechs, items and internals are duds, and which ones are BiS. New players don't. They can easily blow thousands of HC on something that is useless for them. That increases the grind, and kills the fun.

I just have to comment on this one.  I started a smurf to do some economy testing and show a friend the ropes without diving headfirst into high-tier lobbies (everyone who thinks that MergMerg was hacking can sit back down now).  The grind is awful.  Like, I remember it not being that bad, but having gone back and doing it from scratch, it takes way too long to get stuff.  And that's with me knowing exactly what items and internals I wanted.  But I can't even get those items or internals without spending real cash because it takes a pretty long time to reach level 30, honestly.  And again, that's with me doing really well and getting at least 300 xp each match.

It really made me reconsider the arguments that a lot of veterans make:  that items and internals don't affect your performance that much.  They absolutely do.  It's honestly kind of a big deal.  I'm not even talking about the big, obvious one in the air compressor, either.  I just could not play with the same style and performance without that armor fusor giving me a bit of a cushion.  I died a lot more frequently before I could afford that repair charge.  Seriously, take all the items and internals off of your mech, save the starting one.  Play a couple matches.  If you don't get frustrated pretty quickly by situations that you otherwise would have survived, I'll be shocked.

I can sort of see the level grind taking a while and metering out these things you can get as a learning curve and not throwing everything at the player at once (though it encourages players to buy "basic" level internals and Mk-I items which then get replaced with higher tier items, so they're spending their credits twice).  But I think the HC grind is incredibly steep.

I honestly think a better way of doing it would be to make mechs more expensive and then make items and internals dirt cheap.  Like, I'm talking 50-100 HC.  Buying a mech and equipping it with gear should be an exciting event, not a groan-worthy affair where you have to spend more on the parts than on the mech itself.  It's frustrating to buy a mech and get all happy and eager to try it only to be let down when you have to grind out several thousand more HC just to get the thing to competition-ready status.  And that's not even going into the question that I don't think should ever be asked:  "Should I buy X internal/item or a new mech_"  Like, how lame does that sound_


Edit:  As a disclaimer, this is from the perspective of someone who has spent a bunch of money on the game.  Undoubtedly, this colors my expectations about how long the grind should take.

Edit2:  Also, in terms of incentives for making the grind a little less substantial, if people have more mechs, that's more mechs they'll want customized.  I mean, if you only have two mechs, you spend the money and customize those and then you don't have anything else to spend money on.  If you have four, though, that's double the things to spend money on!

I did the same thing as you and started fresh.  It is a grind to level up and to get enough HC to outfit your Mech.  My Son, who buys only Mech and does not add an internals or items.  He always plays that way.  I am sure he would be much better if he put some internal on his Mechs.    You basically have to play Co-OP TD, TD, Missile to get enough HC.  This gives you 750 HC a day, that is if you can win.  I don't play Siege but it frustrates me way to much.  I get into to many games where it seems that I am the only one trying to get into the AA.

It would me nice if you only had to pay for the slots and then you could pick what ever item you wanted for that slot.  A new person can not experiment with different items to see what they want to use.  They just can't afford it with the amount of HC that you receive.  Or at least maybe a trade-in. Remember our Mech are made from spare parts.