33 replies to this topic

[Draigun]

Diablo 3 HAWKEN_

[Teljaxx]

Sylhiri, on August 20 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

My thoughts exactly.

As much as most Warframe players hate RNG, it can be a good thing as long as it is not too ridiculous. And even a PvP game like Hawken could benefit from some randomized loot drops. As long as it is done right, of course.

statcom, on August 20 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

randomly generated, artificial stat modifiers work in pve games because they flesh out character progression and give players unpredictable goals to work towards. they help keep pve experiences fresh and rewarding.

but in a pvp-focused game it just looks like a recipe for disaster. what happens when players start losing to people with full suites of legendary modifiers, or just notably superior stuff_ what happens when they look at the crafting system and realize they'll have to do an crazy amount of grinding to get similar gear_ sure it potentially gives them something to work towards - but it also introduces a noticeable element of artificial skill to pvp matches and increases the grind.

it's a cool idea on paper but i'm skeptical as to how well it would work and be received in practice. *shrugs*

I think that Xacius has a good system here. It would add customization with having to balance positive and negative effects. It would give an incentive to players to not quit mid match. And it would give the players that play for the grind more to grind for. But it should not ruin the skill focus that PvP games should have.

Sure, there will be a difference between player strength based on how long they have played (and how lucky they are) but hopefully it should not be insurmountable with player skill. And this could also be helped by a system like the Conclave points in Warframe that would go along with the MMR currently in Hawken. The more special gear you have on your mechs, the higher your score, and you can only join with players near your score. Though I think this should not be necessary, because each positive attribute you get would come with a negative one, so there is no pure strength increase. And it would most likely only serve to complicate joining matches even more.

It could also help with people leaving after each match if there were a bonus for staying for multiple matches. Like getting a guaranteed orange drop after five consecutive matches. Or maybe just a 10% bonus to rare drop rates per match, up to a 50% bonus after five matches.

It could also be exciting to take your basic, non-customized mech into a game with fully customized opponents, and see if you can still win. This also would give players the ability to handicap themselves. If you are doing better than everyone else in the game, you can even the playing field a bit by using an non-customized mech.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

I think for this idea to work, the game needs to decide on what it is. Is it a FPS, or is it a mech simulator_ Because, as was stated before, as an FPS, this would be a bad idea, but as a mech simulator, and feeling that you're actually in a mech and can customize your mech. The only way that I see this happening in a FPS game is if there was a killstreak feature added...and heck I really don't want that. Either decide, Hawken, be more FPS, or more mech_

As I see it now, the game is going down the path of a FPS, so I don't see this happening - although I really, REALLY want it to because when the game first out, I was super excited about customizing my mech but my computer didn't have the RAM for the game. So when I finally got it on Steam...well, to say that I was disappointed would be an understatement. The lack of any new features that would make this game unique to one's average FPS had also driven off my friends.

Okay, enough of my moaning - I want to see this happen.

[DerMax]

The idea is nice, but vertical progression is not something I'd like to see in the game. The grind is already unbearable for newcomers, and with this idea implemented, it would be on a whole new level. Needless to say, you'd be able to buy orange items for MC, making the game somewhat P2W.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ah... I remember when Firefall had crafted gear with RNG stats. Pretty much sucked in PvP. So much so, that despite multiple attempts to balance it, they eventually just made PvP use base gear. Even with negative stats to "balance" there were always "best" stats, like accuracy or damage. Don't see why that would change in Hawken.

Take Dodge Speed vs. Dodge Cooldown.
What's 10% of the speed you dodge at_ It's really not going to slow you down all that much. You'd still be getting a very fast change in direction. But reducing your Dodge CD by 10%_ Man, that'd be awesome. Can't even count how many deaths I could have avoided if I were able to dodge 1/10th of a second earlier. I'd take Dodge CD over Dodge speed any day of the week. Dodge Speed would practically have to make me blink (short range teleport) for me to consider it to be worthwhile.

I also remember Global Agenda's PvP, which had crafted gear. And also had similar problems. There were a lot of people who just couldn't afford to craft decent gear. If skill was equal, then they'd undoubtedly lose a 1v1. I made quite a bit of currency selling and trading epic-tier gear because I had the time to gather the necessary resources. Hawken doesn't even have an AH as a shortcut for time-starved people to get better gear at a price. They'd just have to grind everything themselves.

My experience with crafted gear in PvP shooters just tells me this doesn't work out well in the end.

Also, how would comp leagues deal with this_ Do they just allow crafted gear_ If there's stats that are acknowledged as being disproportionally powerful, does that gear get banned_ And how would people deal with that_ How would it be enforced_
Or would everything just set to base stats_

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, August 21 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Mawnkey]

Adding everything that's fuzzy bunny about MMO gear to an arena shooter FPS_

[craftydus]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 21 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

Also, how would comp leagues deal with this_

Like smash. No items.

[IronClamp]

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on August 20 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Code fix for this:

RNG rng = new RNG(insert seed here);
int output = 0;
int prevOutput = 0;
while(true){
output = rng * 10;
if(prevOutput == output){
	 continue;
}
else{prevOutput = output; break;}
}

Don't understand_ This code loop will keep "rolling the dice" until it gets a number that is not equal to the previously drawn number.
RNG repetitiveness essentially solved.

AsianJoyKiller, on August 21 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

set to base stats

Again, problem essentially solved.

Edited by IronClamp, August 21 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[DM30]

IronClamp, on August 21 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on August 20 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Code fix for this:

RNG rng = new RNG(insert seed here);
int output = 0;
int prevOutput = 0;
while(true){
   output = rng * 10;
   if(prevOutput == output){
	  continue;
   }
   else{prevOutput = output; break;}
}

Don't understand_ This code loop will keep "rolling the dice" until it gets a number that is not equal to the previously drawn number.
RNG repetitiveness essentially solved.

You may want to put a counter to limit how many loops is allowed. Otherwise there is a (very VERY) slight chance of an infinite loop that will hang your RNG generator.

Just a thought XD

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

IronClamp, on August 21 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on August 20 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Code fix for this:

RNG rng = new RNG(insert seed here);
int output = 0;
int prevOutput = 0;
while(true){
output = rng * 10;
if(prevOutput == output){
	 continue;
}
else{prevOutput = output; break;}
}

Don't understand_ This code loop will keep "rolling the dice" until it gets a number that is not equal to the previously drawn number.
RNG repetitiveness essentially solved.

AsianJoyKiller, on August 21 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

set to base stats

Again, problem essentially solved.

Indeed, however the question is if ADH would use that.  Who knows_  Also, is that C++ or something else_

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, August 21 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[IronClamp]

Java, unfortunately....

DM30, on August 21 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

You may want to put a counter to limit how many loops is allowed.

Right....

Ha, I just had an idea! Make the while loop use a boolean dependent on an RNG to decide when to break. That will reduce the chance of an infinite loop as well as reducing the chance of the same number cropping up multiple times in a row!

Edited by IronClamp, August 21 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[comic_sans]

IronClamp, on August 21 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Java, unfortunately....

DM30, on August 21 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

You may want to put a counter to limit how many loops is allowed.

Right....

Ha, I just had an idea! Make the while loop use a boolean dependent on an RNG to decide when to break. That will reduce the chance of an infinite loop as well as reducing the chance of the same number cropping up multiple times in a row!

I don't mean to be rude, but if we're already thinking of workarounds (or, if I misunderstand, ways to make it less grindy), maybe this idea isn't so hot.  I remember how much I craved some inessential node in blacklight, and I spent something like 30$ very foolishly to end up not even getting the thing.  That frustrating memory and similar ones from other mmos and mmo-inspired things has me completely against this idea.

Plus it took me a metric year just to farm all the fuzzy bunny I need for my DS2 build and I am all farmed out.

Edited by comic_sans, August 21 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Mawnkey]

IronClamp, on August 21 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on August 20 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Code fix for this:

RNG rng = new RNG(insert seed here);
int output = 0;
int prevOutput = 0;
while(true){
output = rng * 10;
if(prevOutput == output){
	 continue;
}
else{prevOutput = output; break;}
}

Don't understand_ This code loop will keep "rolling the dice" until it gets a number that is not equal to the previously drawn number.
RNG repetitiveness essentially solved.

AsianJoyKiller, on August 21 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

set to base stats

Again, problem essentially solved.

Even creating that code demonstrates a poor understanding of randomness, often of the same type that believes in the Gambler's Fallacy. RNGs that don't occasionally have streaks of a particular result are not adequately random, because actual randomness will appear to be "clumpy".

[IronClamp]

Mawnkey, on August 21 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Even creating that code demonstrates a poor understanding of randomness, often of the same type that believes in the Gambler's Fallacy. RNGs that don't occasionally have streaks of a particular result are not adequately random, because actual randomness will appear to be "clumpy".

I was fixing something that was apparently a problem.....
But you seem to be comparing this looting system to something like rolling dice or flipping a coin. It's not, it's like playing the lottery, and how often do they draw the same sequence of numbers, or even the same numbers together in the same sequence, in the lottery_

Quote

....more than five trillion to one....

Quick Google, news article about winning the lottery twice with the same numbers. Yes it's happened, but the odds are outstanding.

So yes, sometimes (in the real world) you get 'clumpy' or repeating digits. But in the digital world, where random numbers are used to generate certain behavior, that clumpy-ness isn't actually useful unless your simulating a real world event.