38 replies to this topic

[craftydus]

I've returned from my sojurn on rev gl grenadier mountain, with dreams of sugar plums dancing in my head, and undertaken study of the EOC primary, specifically on the corsair kla-only raider.
As a player proficient in the effective performance of a reaper, predator, et al in my thousand hours, this is by far, hands down,  the most unforgiving weapon/mech combination I have found in Hawken.

It would be of profound value and be immeasurably appreciated if you consider yourself among the EOC experts, to share any and all insight toward my developement and interest in this fascinating and unique (to hawken_) weapon.

It's really unlike anything I've played in vidya shooters. I have good days/matches.
But when altercations snowball, when I miss a single corsair or volley of pucks, I'm fortunate to dance long enough to live, let alone actually finishing an opponent after any small error on my part.

(In the voice of Morgan Freeman) How do the EOC pilot do_

[Sylhiri]

Wut.

[IareDave]

It's a severely underclassed weapon, and imo is only useful in combination with the infils as the nade is much more forgiving than the kla/mirv. However, I do give it a whirl once n' a while and it is quite enjoyable. The key is to treat it as a heat cannon and aim your shots at your targets feet. The pucks have a slight AoE so this ensures you maximize your hit chance. Gaining height advantage over your target is huge so I recommend running with an AC/fuel converter to give you fly maneuverability. In duels it can actually be quite useful if you play defensively. Take notice if they take flight as this is a perfect time for you to charge up your shots and wait till they run out of fuel or make a landing. Obviously if they are playing aggresive in the air and chasing you its going to be considerably harder to land a puck mid flight. But If you see a zerker for example who you know has been flying for a few seconds and has run out of fuel and in descent then fire off your charge where you predict they will be.

I've never met anyone with the Eoc that was a real threat, but if you pick your shots right you can make some serious plays.

[EliteShooter]

http://www.twitch.tv...udder/c/3865563

Some great EOC duels at the start.

[Sylhiri]

IareDave, on September 18 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

It's a severely underclassed weapon, and imo is only useful in combination with the infils as the nade is much more forgiving than the kla/mirv.

It's a trade off in health.

Having two explosive weapons makes it harder for CQC fights, especially in shields. Every mech that has the EOC uses a different playstyle and in my opinion has the best balance for skill:power.

Edited by Sylhiri, September 18 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[IareDave]

Sylhiri, on September 18 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

IareDave, on September 18 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

It's a severely underclassed weapon, and imo is only useful in combination with the infils as the nade is much more forgiving than the kla/mirv.

It's a trade off in health.

Having two explosive weapons makes it harder for CQC fights, especially in shields. Every mech that has the EOC uses a different playstyle and in my opinion is has the best balance for skill:power.

Having two explosive weapons actually makes it considerably easier in cqc fights as you can maximize your aoe potential with both primary/secondary by firing at an around corners as opposed to the mirv which lacks the functionality and rof.

Edited by IareDave, September 18 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Amidatelion]

I use it on the Infil and Rocketeer, but its use on the Rocketeer won't be useful to you in a Raider as its area denial ground spam.

Because I have put like, no time into the Raider, I can't really tell you how to use it in combo with the Corsair/KLA effectively, unlike with a grenade outside of your initial engage. The pucks will be slower than your secondary and so will need to be fired first. They also need to be lead more than any other weapon in the game. The direct damage is MUCH higher than the ground-detonation AOE, so landing direct damage shots is preferable, even if only a few hit.

Depending on your accuracy, it may be more effective to load all 6 shots every time you fire for maximum "spray." You need to learn to sweep with the barrage along the path your enemy is taking/is going to take. Think of it as painting with a paintbrush, that's a similar movement. More shots makes for a longer stroke, but lower overall dps. Uncharged, fewer shots make for relatively short brushes, but higher DPS if you land all your shots because you will reload faster than you can charge. A long, fast brushstroke can conceivably land multiple shots on an escaping scout, given excellent accuracy. Minor advantages of the charge method include virtually impossibility to overheat and the ability to correct your aim mid-shot, though I expect you're a better shot than I and so won't need that as much. Still, a nice way to compensate for someone who zagged when you thought he would zig.

The shots on the ground have their place, particularly in setting up quick ambushes and in corner play. You should be setting them just "inside" the wall that your opponent has to get around to shoot you, if you get what I mean. And on both sides. I have no idea how corner play in a Raider works otherwise, but I imagine you'll figure something out to incorporate this.

Again, I don't imagine you need this, but its more for the other people who might be reading, a word of warning: DO NOT POINT BLANK FIRE with EOC-R, even uncharged. Guaranteeing its burst is not worth suffering that burst yourself BECAUSE ITS STUPID AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.

And that's about all the theory I can impart

[Skitzo1d]

The eoc is a very very difficult weapon in the current meta.  Hard to hit flyers with it so makes it difficult in most duels as most people use AC.  The reason Heat is a little better is its faster projectile for flyers but also on the ground it has huge splash whereas the eoc they pretty much have to be right on top of it to aoe it anyways.

The eoc is not effective except for ambushes on open type maps. For closed up maps with a hallways its great where they inevitably have to walk over them.  or maps with lot of cover because you can play very defensive corner play with it (if people are dumb enough to follow you around the corner) a full salvo already laid on the ground with a full salvo loaded up plus grenade to the face in dangerous.

When you were trying to use it against me in bunker I would say you were playing it wrong.  I know im not an expert but you were rushing me from the front each time so I knew you were coming and kept my distance, out of range of your mirv.  Also I made sure I stayed flying simply cause against the eoc space bar = win mode and the kla is hard to hit flyers too cause no splash damage.  You have to make the enemy play on your terms when you use the eoc,  bait them into you around a corner.  Use your kla to grab their attention and bait them to chase you, not you chase them. Thats why this playstyle is completly different than the traditional raider.  If you can sneak up on someone it will be good for a nice alpha strike though.  If your using the eoc and you enter a duel with someone who starts flying, think about dodging under them back and forth staying under them until they run out of fuel.  Or just exiting the duel and waiting for a bettter opportunity.

This is all coming from not an eoc raider (only t32, mirv raider) and an eoc infil player (use to main the eoc infil) so take it with a grain of salt, also I'm not the best player around.

[Skitzo1d]

Amidatelion, on September 18 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Depending on your accuracy, it may be more effective to load all 6 shots every time you fire for maximum "spray." You need to learn to sweep with the barrage along the path your enemy is taking/is going to take. Think of it as painting with a paintbrush, that's a similar movement. More shots makes for a longer stroke, but lower overall dps. Uncharged, fewer shots make for relatively short brushes, but higher DPS if you land all your shots because you will reload faster than you can charge.

Actually uncharged and charged mode have exact same dps if you fire exactly when each are ready.  So its almost always better to charge 6 and line up your shot better than to spam 3.  Plus you can get more pucks on the ground at the same time with charged (18, 3 full salvos), versus I think 15 (uncharged) simply cause of the timing it takes on the last charge versus when that first set of pucks disapears from the ground.  You would think the math wud say charging would be actual more dps but it really isnt.

Edited by Skitzo1d, September 18 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[Amidatelion]

I disagree on the flying bit. Last night being not the greatest example because I was drunk, but in the air its much easier to hit most targets, even with AC because of the ability to correct your aim. Fire, correct your aim for the air dodge and then hit them with the grenade/MIRV. This works best at just inside medium range because of the slow travel time of the pucks.

Skitzo1d, on September 18 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Actually uncharged and charged mode have exact same dps if you fire exactly when each are ready.

Huh. Duly noted! I never use 3-shot anyways, I was just going off what I was told.

Also, one last thing to remember is that the EOC actually has recoil, so correct for this for long-range shots, though this does make it easier to paint those lines for corner play I mentioned.

[Skitzo1d]

Amidatelion, on September 18 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

I disagree on the flying bit. Last night being not the greatest example because I was drunk, but in the air its much easier to hit most targets, even with AC because of the ability to correct your aim. Fire, correct your aim for the air dodge and then hit them with the grenade/MIRV. This works best at just inside medium range because of the slow travel time of the pucks.

Not sure what you are meaning by correct your aim, because even with ground targets you correct your aim too.  Its just with ground targets if you aim at their feet like dave said you at least have a chance that at least the aoe and they will step on them since its close proximity.

I agree that the closer you are the easier it is to hit with the pucks cause they do travel slow.  But to me this is kinda moot cause the slow travel time is why they are hard to hit with the first place.

Hats off to you though if your able to hit those flyers, cuase I sure cant.

Ive postulated before that the aoe on eoc shud be slightly increased not by far but just a slight bit, but also the aoe shud trigger if you shoot them in the air and they come close to a flying mech but not actually hitting them.

[Amidatelion]

Basically, with most projectile weapons like heat cannon, you fire, he dodges, you miss. With EOC, once he dodges, you have a split second to redirect your aim, letting some of the pucks still hit. It's sorta halfway between an automatic and burst.

That's the great thing about EOC in my mind, its actually pretty forgiving once you learn to use it. And yeah, the AOE is pretty sweet, so long as getting the direct damage is your primary objective and laying mines is your handy fallback.

And yeah a larger area and aerial proximity fuse  would be pretty nice.

[Skitzo1d]

Amidatelion, on September 18 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Basically, with most projectile weapons like heat cannon, you fire, he dodges, you miss. With EOC, once he dodges, you have a split second to redirect your aim, letting some of the pucks still hit. It's sorta halfway between an automatic and burst.

That's the great thing about EOC in my mind, its actually pretty forgiving once you learn to use it. And yeah, the AOE is pretty sweet, so long as getting the direct damage is your primary objective and laying mines is your handy fallback.

And yeah a larger area and aerial proximity fuse  would be pretty nice.

re edit, I see what you mean, yea but the speed at which u need ot turn ur mouse and get 6 pucks out by the time you reach where they dodged to, u might get 1 puck on them which is only 26 damage for that 2 second charge timed eoc, not very much dps.  I still think just letting them dodge and then firing 6 at where they dodge is better. But thats still going to be hard to hit a good amount of pucks in the air.

Edited by Skitzo1d, September 18 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Sylhiri]

You can try to force them to use Air Dodge with your secondary (or item) which you air detonate while they dodge to get damage off the secondary, then you use EOC while the enemy mech dodge is on cooldown. Pretty much the same as the Heat Cannon just that you can't spam shots with the EOC as easily.

[Flifang]

You want to stand back more as an eoc raider. like I told you before when you were asking, the A/C is a absolutely perfect match for this mech set up. with the arc of the grenade mode and the spread of the eoc at longer ranges you want to find a good low hanging ramp, hover up, shoot then drop. in cqc situations, you want to lay down eoc as a movement prediction and slash across the ground with it like a sword then shoot your secondary in the opposite direction. This is what I use on good dodgers but if you are confident just wait until after they dodge and hit em with both. with a/C and blitz, you can use a corridor and jump fire both weapons at the enemy's feet then 180 air dodge into cover. makes a sort of mid air olyptical that's hard as hell to hit

[Odinous]

Well thank god craftydus u asked this first,i was about to buy second raider for eoc set up only,and thank you all for the tips.Now i cant w8 till i get to my rig and make some tries
Also while i loved the eoc on pred(due to its secondary eoc i guess it fits as it is),i was impatient to unlock it on infi,and still i dont know how to use it exactly,Eliteshooter here comes another thanks to you for the video you uploaded,while i thought infis grenade would fit eoc perfectly i failed at cqc many times.More practise i guess.

[DerMax]

Crafty, don't bother using EOC on Raider. It doesn't synergize with Corsair and Blitz, and it's terrible in open-field CQC.

[DaPheel]

DerMax, on September 18 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Crafty, don't bother using EOC on Raider. It doesn't synergize with Corsair and Blitz, and it's terrible in open-field CQC.

Yup - same with the rocketeer, still good on the Infi. though...

[GalaxyRadio]

Hi Crafty,

i'am not a good EOC Player, but i belive you have to change your mind, how to play hawken, for beeing a EOC pilot. I made just for you 2 Videos.

But first, i think you can't play with Raider + EOC well on every Map, if you have tough enemy player, because they know to use map/wepaon for advantage. So they won't fail because they rushing things, they will wait until they got support to kill you or waiting to have a upper hand in a spot where they can play better with their own weapons. So very often i found myself just in pub games, where i can make such tactics like this, but sometimes you have overconfident good enemy player doing the same.....

Video 1:



1. lay Puks on the Ground, watch the radar/hear and shoot KLA for ground/splash dmg and stay yourself in cover while going backwards.
2. lay a shield, put some puks near the middle to shild, wait until the enemy get into the shield, use kla and go outside, lay another puks down and dodge when they came out and shoot the KLA before the dodge. Surprisingly that worked in pub or againts good players being overconfident to get you, forget that eoc+KLA can almost destroy them instantly (A-Class) just rushing the kill.

Video 2:

Don't go in CQC, use the raider more like a Spammer with KLA Splash DMG for a griup of Enemy's and EOC. If they got enough dmg and your teammates are also backing you up and closing in, i use Blitz to chase some hurting mechs down laying mines in front of them, where they move to and finish with KLA if i have to with gound splash dmg.



So my general tactic with EOC Raider is to do most of the dmg with using cover and closing in only, if i can finish them with just one KLA or EOC, or using Blitz and dance around until they can't fly anymore and get on the ground without any fuel with just dodge. So i try to stay out of the trouble or fight in CQC if i can use cover for optimal use of EOC+KLA for indirect dmg.

But thats a very situational thing. If you play againts a good enemy team, but they are almost all the time not together, its hard to use KLA because u can't do much dmg with just Splash and you could be attacked from many directions at the same time in CQC with another player playing safe with cover, what takes a lot of time.

But you are a powerful finisher for C-Class with Full Load KLA+EOC or destryoing hurting mechs with Blitz behind the AA get 2 of them and get back for repair, this can shift the momentum in Siege games.

Very good EOC Raider is for example Kopra.

Kind Regards,

Galaxy Radio

PS: Don't pay attention to my jumping with Raider, thats a really bad habit from playing Technician to be a hard target to shot..... Jumping dodging and flying/air dodge the whole time, its hard to get away from that feeling being the target for all haha

Edited by GalaxyRadio, September 19 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[bad_wolf2013]

If you have trouble with leading your shots, I suggest you use the assault rifle in servers with high ping, around 200  maybe. I learnt how to play the game at 300, when I got the eoc on my pred it felt quite familiar and I loved it. Currently, I have it on my raider, rocketeer and infil but I find it to be more useful on the raider and predator(I know breacher is a better weapon). Just stay at mid range and get a fail safe if you see that you get into a lot of cqc situations.
Avoid using it in dm at all costs(unless your playing on bunker, then just use the stupidest thing you can think of).
It is great for tdm and even better in siege or missile assault.

Edited by bad_wolf2013, September 19 2014 - 07:58 AM.