39 replies to this topic

[c0mad0r]

I REALLY want to like the Brawler, Rocketeer and *Alpha NDA Restricted other name* C-Class Mechs, they are simply still too weak to use overall. I find them to be currently classified as "niche use" classes.

Don't get me wrong, there are several instances where having a C-Class in TDM, Seige or Missile have been beneficial, but those scenarios are far outweighed by others overall actions using A or B Class Mechs.

C-Class are big and cumbersome, they have a little more health and energy overall, but it is still simply not enough to offset everything going against their ability.

C-Class Advantages:

• Defensive Mode - Unique and effective special support role ability
  
• +100HP "Health" - Over B-Class (C-Class=850HP)
  
• +100 More Energy (_) - Over B-Class,but compensates for its size in getting places

C-Class Disadvantages:

• Slower movement
  
• Slower turning/reaction time
  
• Lower DPS than other mechs due to encumbrance
  
• Weapons per-shot damages are the same as all other classes
  
• Item quantities are the same as all other classes
  
• Repair Rate is slower due to sheer amount of HP (still only 100 more than B-Class)
  
• Bigger hitbox for enemies (seems that way anyways)

Since this thing is supposed to be the lumbering giant and a support mech, I really feel it should have at least one of the following conservative suggestions:

• 900HP total health (max of 975 with Defensive +75 optimization)
  
• +1 Defensive & Functionality Item quantity holding space over other Mechs (It's got trunk space!)
  
• 3% (_) Increased Damage Reduction over other Mechs (At least while in Special Ability Turret Mode)
  
• Special Ability Turret Mode shouldn't feel worthless
  
• Faster Special Ability conversion speeds

Between taking an additional 5 seconds to get anywhere or to follow the "pack", getting stuck on corners more often, inability to fly up on most buildings, slow turning speeds, losing more than not versus faster/agile A-Class mechs,  and snipers taking easy shots at their massive broadside; This mech class truly needs something more to appeal to people for long-term use. Otherwise, it will remain the least used class in the game.

Edited by c0mad0r, October 28 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[Juodvarnis]

Totally agree, i do wish those giant plates, wings, shields, on the top would do anything more than just make it a bigger target.

The turret modes are completely rubbish too, which is weird cause all the other mechs abilities are direct stat boosts for a time, (or invisibility for the infiltrator, which is infinitely more useful)

I really wish they were better cause i simply adore the "Cupcakes" look

[Firemac]

I agree. I play an A-Class mech, the Berserker, and I rarely find C-Classes to be a problem. For one if you are going up against a C-Class and you have an HE charge (Which I do) FORGET ABOUT IT. There is no way you can miss and they do a ton of damage. And when I see one in Turret mode I just tend to stay at a good distance. Its like facing a Tonberry, they might be deadly when they reach you but it will take them around 20 turns to actually reach you.

Juodvarnis, on October 27 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

(or invisibility for the infiltrator, which is infinitely more useful)

Really you think the Invis on Infiltrator is good_
I've tried playing that class and every time I invis (and no they don't see me go invisible), they spot me right away. I have come to the conclusion that Infiltrators ability is they glow red and have a huge target on them.

[SweetTooth]

I agree, to a certain extent.

As it stands, they're already a natural bullet sponge.

They need a +3% - +5% damage increase.

P.S. Sharpshooters are the C-Class's dominator (or plausible anti-class), and they also feel slightly overwhelming and possibly overpowered to me, but that's in regards to a previous statement.

[defekt]

Every once in a while I blitz around in my Berserker and bump into someone who knows how to make a C-class mech a very stubborn obstacle to shift indeed (usually with an attendant mini-turret deployed nearby); however, not one of those roadblocks were in Turret mode.  Turret mode seems to have been improved but it's still perhaps that weakest aspect of the C-class machines; it still needs to be made much more attractive to balance the loss of all useful mobility and in becoming a large, static damage magnet.

Edit: Typos.

Edited by defekt, October 27 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[Buphalo]

I almost always use the C-Class and I agree with a lot of what has been said. I feel that in a C-Class I have to try much harder to achieve the same level of combat effectiveness that I would get in the smaller frames. Turret mode seems pretty much useless, as survival in this game seems to be largely dependent on staying mobile and dodging incoming fire rather than just absorbing it. The few times I have used turret mode has been on siege matches when defending the energy generator and even then it doesn't feel like it is necessary or even that useful.

[ZeNublet]

I love using the Brawler and Rocketeer and I agree. For being a C-class which is suppose to be beefy and deal a lot of damage having a smaller Class fighting me toe to toe and winning sometimes is strange. I feel as though they should be able to easily outrun us and fight us by hiding behind walls and popping out for some shots then running around to flank. Being able to fight one on one is just feels silly.

I'd suggest making it so we have a bit  more reduced damage or armor. Possibly making it so even when not in the turret mode the armor on the shoulders still take the same damage they would as deployed making it so just aiming at our shoulders would be less efficient so only body shots would deal the normal damage.

Overall for such a big class it just feels as though it's defense is lacking a bit.

[Falanin]

I love the flak cannon.  I can actually near-miss and still be marginally effective, which is important since I'm a bad shot.

PLEASE for the love of $deity, make switching to and from defense mode take less time.  It could take half as long and the assault shooting you will still kill you.  It's just not useful to switch in anything like a combat situation.  I really like the turret mode.  I wish it was useable.

[0siris]

Agree with pretty much everything here, also PLEASE add health meter to turret mode!  If I'm gonna be a sitting duck i should at least know if I am about to die

[Robsbot]

I've noticed a few quirks about the C class rocketeer (my main mech) and I'd like to put in some input about C class balance (note I have no experience with a Brawler, and I've never even seen one in game but I'm assuming most of these points sans weapons are pretty spot on for both).

Ability:
I never use siege mode. Ever. It makes you more vulnerable to fire due to being extremely slow and unable to bail if you start to lose a fight. The idea of a turret mode just doesn't seem to fit well in a game where speed and dodging are the key. I think this is the area that needs improvement with the C class. If this changes it may make the C class worthwhile with no other changes.

Weapons:
Dueling: Both primaries on the Rocketeer can charge doing massive damage on a shot. This is good and bad. Compared to the assault and sharpshooter, a missed shot is probably your death. You have no way to recover easily from that and the other classes will out DPS you while you wait for the next shot to load. It's extremely penalizing. However, with the rockets, you can charge up a shot, pop around a corner or sneak up to a sniper, start a lock, fire your primary, finish the lock, and let rip a set of rockets. You'll leave a medium at about 3 bars after that barrage depending on how many rockets hit. That's nuts. However, due to both weapons having long reload times and poor DPS when not charge you really have to rely on LOSing your enemy between shots and keep popping out, lobbing a huge damage volley, and then popping back into cover.

Fire support: I find the rocketeer excels in this role like no other mech. While a sharpshooter can do great damage it doesn't have the burst of the rocketeer. Use the burst combo to wreck a mech and have a friendly with more forgiving weapons do the cleanup. It's not glorious, but it certainly works. Worst case scenario you get part of the volley off and the enemy has to take cover or continue to take massive damage. So while the mech's weapons have some glaring weaknesses they also fill a really good niche role. I think some adjustment is needed but not so much a drastic change. Maybe the option to have an assault rifle type weapon would help lessen the extreme niche fire support role and add more dueling capability when you need it.

Mobility:
Smart smaller mechs will simply cram themselves down your throat and you'll have a hard time tracking them while they circle strafe you. Due to how the missiles in particular come from the side of your mech and not from the front it can be really hard to hit someone point blank even when aiming at the ground to get splash damage. I think that's a good tradeoff for the rocketeer's burst potential but it seems a bit too easy to exploit with the myriad of cover in the game to help someone close the gap. Again, probably needs more fine tuning than a large adjustment.

Fuel:
I noticed they have quite a bit more fuel which seems awesome at first but has some severe limitations. Due to their weight it sucks your fuel and you still go almost nowhere when trying to move vertically with jump jets. However, I've noticed a REAL strength with the fuel: You can bail out of almost any fight. I can usually 1v1 in a rocketeer with some corner hopping and not have to dodge much or at all. If I start to lose a fight, I just do a 180 and smash the fuel guzzler to bail back to friendly lines while trying to LOS. It makes killing me EXTREMELY hard to kill unless I get out in the open and flanked, ambushed, or just get careless. I'm actually pretty happy with where the fuel is at right now as it makes getting into a perch difficult but it can be extremely rewarding for the rocketeer.

Overall: It just seems the weapons need a bit of a tweak and the ability needs a complete overhaul. Possibly the ability to drop a rocket or machine gun turret as the special would help secure their fire support / point defense role and give them that niche that you guys seem to want them to have. A +50 base HP increase and a 3% damage reduction would really put them in a good spot depending on the overhaul of the ability. I'm, pretty happy with the rocketeer as a whole though. Undertuned, but nowhere near useless.

EDIT: Oh, and I would love to see %hp repair instead of flat numbers. At times it can feel like the extra HP is an encumbrance rather than a boon. It would standardize repair times and compensate for HP upgrades which I don't think is a bad thing

Edited by Robsbot, October 27 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Aelieth]

I've posted on other class C comments, so I'll say totally agreed. Class C needs a major looking at. Mobility is such as huge factor in this game. Won't keep typing because more threads about it may start, so leaving it at agreeing with this.

[OldDirtyFox]

I use the brawler alot and find I have an easyer time in that mech then others if you toss that repair upgrade item on it repairs realy quick.
in the assult class I sit around a 15-12-10 ratio with the brawler I sit around 22-7-15 ratio on kills to deaths granted the turret mode I will agree is useless most of the time.

If anything i would like to ther to be options as to were the sheilds are placed takeing them off the top and moveing them to diffrent parts of themech would help to lower its huge hit box but could mean you catch the walls more when boosting around.

Another thing maybe increase the heat it can take before shuting down the weapons.

Edited by OldDirtyFox, October 27 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[D20Face]

I still think turret mode is grape in a can since dodging is pointless against players.

The heavy mechs also have exclusive rights on the flak and repeater, the two strongest current weapons.

The only thing I'd do to buff them is improve the turret mode transition time to be the same as heal startup(including bonuses from optimizations should you so choose them).

Edited by D20Face, October 27 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Shiner980]

The special ability is definitely the weakest part of the kit, in addition to it's large size. It needs more tankiness (either base or fortified mode), and it takes FOREVER to transform into defensive mode, which kills it's usage in the heat of battle, which is the only time you'd really use it because you can barely move otherwise. In Siege and Missile Assault modes, using it as a defensive turret just leaves you open to sharpshooters ending you with you being unaware of getting owned because you have no health indicator.

Brawler is my first and beloved, but it's a hindrance in performance to play as one in comparison to the A and B class mechs

[Buphalo]

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

I still think turret mode is grape in a can since dodging is pointless against players.

The heavy mechs also have exclusive rights on the flak and repeater, the two strongest current weapons.

The only thing I'd do to buff them is improve the turret mode transition time to be the same as heal startup(including bonuses from optimizations should you so choose them).

Dodging is pointless_ So the most effective way to deal with incoming damage is to just take it_ Apparently I've been playing the Brawler wrong. Sorry but this game is all about mobility and a stationary or near stationary target is pure canon fodder. After about 5-6 hours of playtime I am able to effectively dodge a good portion of incoming projectiles but, as a C-Class it is much more difficult to accomplish due to their massive size and lack of agility. It wouldn't be that big of an issue if there was an upside to their large size but a little extra armor/energy just doesn't cut it as we get shredded almost as quickly as a B-Class.

I don't think reducing the transition time on turret mode would help much at all, I probably still wouldn't use it even if it was an almost instant transition as you are a slightly hardier near stationary target. Turret mode in it's current form just does not work in a game as fast paced as Hawken.

Edited by Buphalo, October 27 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[D20Face]

Buphalo, on October 27 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

slightly hardier near stationary target

Increasing your effective health from 800 to 1080 assuming no total health optimizations is slight_ Duely noted.

Buphalo, on October 27 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

a game as fast paced as Hawken.

What_

Everything in this game is slow. The reason turret mode works is because everybody is moving in slow motion all the time and missed shots just plain don't happen in most instances.

Dodging shots isn't about skill or prediction in most cases, it's just a flat out range evaluation. Is there enough time for your side boost to avoid the projectile_ If so, you dodge.

A smart player with turret mode will eliminate the long range encounters it'd lose in(but not those it'd win) and use it to trap players in an unwinnable scenario. Basically you use it to prey on cocky A classes or in team modes to hold positions normally impossible. It can also turn the tides when multiple opponents are present in standard deathmatch. You'll outlast the other dude and be able to launch an HE charge at the guy left focusing you for a chance at an escape.

[BeefSoupreme]

I'd really like to see the siege mode utilized more. Right now it seems better to stay mobile, but may be it will find its use in missile defense or siege mode where you actually have to defend a point.

[Dreizehn]

I don't have much trouble dealing with other mechs despite being fatter and slower. Just need to press your advantage as a fatty and make all your moves count.

Though I do agree - turret mode is absolutely worthless. Especially for the Brawler. Close ranged mech, turret mode... well you can take the longer ranged primary but frak, its a Brawler! Whats it doing with the flak cannon_

[Devildoc]

The turret mode just doesn't seem to do much for me other than make me an easy target as a brawler.  I love rushing in and shotgunning things in FPS's but here your shotgun mech is a cumbersome tank that lacks maneuverability (something important when you have a short range weapon)  I can't even jump jet up to ledges I see sharpshooters and assault mechs getting to.

Is there a lighter mech that has the flak cannon_

But really the C mechs do need something.

[Buphalo]

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Increasing your effective health from 800 to 1080 assuming no total health optimizations is slight_ Duely noted.

Given the fact that you are an easy target for a sabot, TOW, hellfire barrage, grenade launcher or, HE charge, then yes it is slight.

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

What_

Everything in this game is slow. The reason turret mode works is because everybody is moving in slow motion all the time and missed shots just plain don't happen in most instances.

Dodging shots isn't about skill or prediction in most cases, it's just a flat out range evaluation. Is there enough time for your side boost to avoid the projectile_ If so, you dodge.

The mechs themselves are slow but combat is anything but slow, especially against an A class or movement optimized B class

Dodging special weapons up close in this game isn't easy but it isn't pure luck either, most players tend to use their specials the second they are available again. After playing for a bit I started getting the general idea of weapons reload times which has increased my chances of dodging incoming fire greatly. I don't dodge everything but I dodge enough to be able to survive multiple encounters before healing.

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

A smart player with turret mode will eliminate the long range encounters it'd lose in(but not those it'd win) and use it to trap players in an unwinnable scenario. Basically you use it to prey on cocky A classes or in team modes to hold positions normally impossible. It can also turn the tides when multiple opponents are present in standard deathmatch. You'll outlast the other dude and be able to launch an HE charge at the guy left focusing you for a chance at an escape.

You make a valid point here but it applies more to rocketeers than brawlers, as a brawler the lack of mobility turret mode gives is a death sentence. If you are using the flak cannon(and why wouldn't you be_) you need the ability to dictate the range of the fight, either by dashing to close the gap or pursuing a target trying to get out of your effective range. I actually saw the perfect example of why turret mode doesn't work on a brawler:

I was playing as a brawler in a TDM when I ran into a rare turreted brawler, I was below 300 armor and he was at full. I was able to sit about 20m away launching TOWs at him while easily dodging his TOW. After he got hit by 3 TOWs he tried to hop out of turret mode at which point I dashed in hit him with another tow and 3 flak shots to kill him. I finished the fight with about 225 armor, taking only half of the pellets from one flak cannon blast the whole fight. Even if I was forced to fight him at close range he still would have been at a disadvantage, since I could have used peek-a-boo style firing while he was mostly immobile.

If the C Class abilities are the only abilities in game to have a downside give me the option to disable it and remove the plates for a smaller profile and/or slight speed increase.

Edited by Buphalo, October 28 2012 - 12:54 PM.