39 replies to this topic

[Rotaken]

I hated playing as class C back in Alpha2 and I hate it now. Buut I gotta agree with you guys. I find it way too easy to kill class C with my class A as I don't (most of the time I don't even need to cover or atleast it feels like that) . It should have at least part of the boost what OP stated and a turret mode where all damage what hits the shields should be negated 50-70% so it would be useful. Only succes i have ever seen was when someone was defending in domination with help of teammates. Other than that it just stationary target what is extremely easy to hit. It needs sum love. I've only once so far seen class C mech on top of scorelist.

[c0mad0r]

I accidentally converted to "Siege Mode" a few minutes ago and died before the conversion finished... it's rather annoying,

[IceTonic]

Devildoc, on October 28 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

The turret mode just doesn't seem to do much for me other than make me an easy target as a brawler.  I love rushing in and shotgunning things in FPS's but here your shotgun mech is a cumbersome tank that lacks maneuverability (something important when you have a short range weapon)  I can't even jump jet up to ledges I see sharpshooters and assault mechs getting to.

Is there a lighter mech that has the flak cannon_

But really the C mechs do need something.

When I look at it I don't understand why the Rocketeer has increased mobility in Turret Mode when the Brawler could benefit from it more especially if the front-shield for Turrets didn't share your Armor and you could still boost (just not jump) with the damn thing but capped at 2/3 of your original speed for this instance. At least then a Brawler toting a Flak Cannon would act more-or-less as a tanky mech. Isn't that what was intended_

Brawler sounds like a close-up and personal name for a mech, and so does a shotgun (in games). Allow it to use its ability to help with mobility, even with a chunk of speed reduced it could push toward the front in group engagements with plenty of protection, being the tried and true bullet sponge that can soak up as much damage as it can dish.

For the Rocketeer, it could use extra regeneration, but it would benefit more if it could fire its secondary faster when turning into a turtle. Not like you should be getting close with the big guy and its secondary, it could do well mid/long range with some extra love from the devs.

Also bumping, any official word on tweaks/buffs to C-Class abilities_

[Juodvarnis]

I believe i had already suggested this somewhere, but anyway
I think that one mech should get the shield in front of it impenetrable by bullet based weapons and get reduced damage from explosives, but only from the front.
And the other one being able to use the forward boost while in turret form.

[Bluebeard]

I do agree with most points made in this thread, but I also think that a C-class mech just has a steeper learning curve than other mechs. While  most A-mechs and B-mechs are designed for one-on-one battles, the C-class is not. It's about taking your distance over your enemies, and using that distance to your advantage. Barraging enemies while moving backwards when they are following you is most of the times enough to take them down.

The ability is not the best, but can certainly be used to an advantage. In Deathmatch for example, it's useless. But in TDM, Siege, and Missile it can certainly be used to a useful extent. It's all about positioning and coordinating with your team. The ability is used to support from a distance, which can be done when you're defending a point.

I've mainly played Rocketeer since the Alpha, and exclusively since the start of the Beta. Most of the times I'm in the top three of the leaderboards, often at second or first place, so it is possible to use the C-class to win matches.

[c0mad0r]

The biggest problem with the Brawler is that the Flak Cannon is actually only useful in close ranged combat. While you can "ding" people with it "close" to midrange, it has a huge dropoff and is only useful up close where C-Classes really should NOT be.  I still like the Brawler, but it requires more up close combat to be effective.

[defekt]

c0mad0r, on October 29 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

The biggest problem with the Brawler is that the Flak Cannon is actually only useful in close ranged combat. While you can "ding" people with it "close" to midrange, it has a huge dropoff and is only useful up close where C-Classes really should NOT be.  I still like the Brawler, but it requires more up close combat to be effective.

Yup.  By far the most impactful component of any toe-to-toe brawl is obviously pilot experience but after that comes mobility, and after that comes weapon effectiveness (given the currently available weaponry), finally mech durability.  A C-class entering into a brawl situation is more often than not a dead mech walking; it can’t move fast enough to retain position and it can’t escape.

These C-class mechs are going to be the awkward progeny of Hawken, if they’re not that already!

Edit: Typos.

Edited by defekt, October 29 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[haze4peace]

I have an idea of how they could tweak turret mode. The shield itself should have its own hp... say 300, or 400. Once that hp has been depleated the shield breaks and is then not usable for the rest of that players current life.. If that is too harsh perhaps a 3 or 4min cooldown. Also I think the shield should negate overage damage, so say the shield has 100hp left and it gets hit for 200hp, it should negate the extra 100hp, but break.
The transition from broken shield to regular fighting style should be pretty quick too, not instant, but fast.

[Zyx]

I haven't looked into this enough but I just thought I'd mention here that the repeater doesn't seem to do much unless you hit your target. If I fire at the ground where my enemy is going to be and he jumps onto those explosives I expect him to suffer damage.

Seems like there's too much delay before exploding, or maybe the splash isn't large enough.

I wish I was sure what the problem was.

[WALSRU]

Full-time Brawler here and the only time I found any use for bunker mode is in FFA and while being chased I'll dart around a corner, break LOS, and go turret. It's sort of an element of surprise thing but I grabbed quite a few kills giving them the 1-2 with flak>tow. I think they had to readjust their aim for my lower stature. I tried it with turret support as well but didn't seem at all more useful than having the mobility.

I'd like to see them function as a near instant shield to block big grenades or rockets. Have them flip down in front of the cockpit (obscuring view) but absorb hits with their own HP pool until they become a bare frame (broken like in death animation). I just don't like turret mode. If it's going to be useful at all it needs to be almost immovable with regeneration and/or mitigation. Extra heat dissipation or firing rate sure would help too.

The suggestion about repairs occurring by percentage and not HP points is a great idea as well.

Edited by WALSRU, October 29 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[haze4peace]

Yes, I like what WALSRU is saying, 2nd paragraph. I was going to write more and started, but I think he summed it up nicely.

Edited by haze4peace, October 29 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[IceTonic]

haze4peace, on October 29 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I have an idea of how they could tweak turret mode. The shield itself should have its own hp... say 300, or 400. Once that hp has been depleated the shield breaks and is then not usable for the rest of that players current life.. If that is too harsh perhaps a 3 or 4min cooldown. Also I think the shield should negate overage damage, so say the shield has 100hp left and it gets hit for 200hp, it should negate the extra 100hp, but break.
The transition from broken shield to regular fighting style should be pretty quick too, not instant, but fast.

I've been trying to push this kind of idea, that and for Mobile Turret to allow non-vertical boosting. If the shield has a one-time use before breaking down it could use extra Armor, otherwise allow it to be repaired when it disables/retracts from taking too much damage.

It becomes terribly disappointing when you still feel pain when you'd expect your shield to be taking most of the damage. Someone should call up some Meteor/Adhesive Staff to see if they acknowledge this issue. Maybe if we talk enough about this they'll give us some future insight.

[Novaflare]

brawlers are fine in deathmatch, I win a majority of those, finally stopped coming in first all the time as well teched light mechs are starting to kick some serious A. I think the way you tech makes a big difference, I'm almost all movement tech tree at level 20, and when I was playing 100% free for all with my brawler I had a 2.43 K/D ratio which was fine by me.  Its a lot tougher when in other game modes, but I can't complain

[AC273]

I said this before and I will say it again.    it would be nice if the shields had armor that was independent of the mech.  The attacker would have to blow through the shields to get to the mechs armor.   Plus it would be a nice visual indicator to the attacker if you are actually wearing the machine down or not.   It would also give the C-class ability something special.   Right now they are just big fat targets.

Also in turret mode, a zoom would be a nice feature.  Your not mobile enough to move around for a good view a lot of times, so  a zoom would help with that handicap.

[IceTonic]

It seems like there is a growing agreement that the Turret Mode's shielding should have its own individual Armor stat than share with the mech's own Armor pool.

[FluxX]

How about a pushback power when in turret mode_
Or 10% rate of fire bonus in turret mode_

Hmmm. Actually, a defense buff on it's own is pretty poor, but a attack buff on top of it might work. What do you think of that_ You'll still be vulnerable to class A/B mechs running around your slow/stationary turret, but you'll put a hurt in their back sides in the process_

Some form of boosting also sounds reasonable. Slower or shorter to be a downgrade for the upgrade that the turret provides in armour defense.

Also, if there is any type of "secondary armour/shield", perhaps make the damage an animation_ The armour plates get knocked over by fire (go back to an undeployed position). Then after some time, drop back down if not fired on. With perhaps 2 levels of protection (like 20% and 40%). Beef up the defense more than it is currently, but with this version, the more concentrated the fire, the more the defense buff reduces. So while a turret would have great shielding, it would quickly degrade if not kept in check and if under constant attack.

This would allow a more defense, without adding a second HP pool. As a second HP pool would IMO be out of place in this game. The armour would also "recharge" just as the other special abilities do. And as it only recharges the armour plates back to a standing up position (they fall down if shot too much), it also avoids magic regenerating armour plates.

Edited by FluxX, October 29 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[c0mad0r]

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

How about a pushback power when in turret mode_
Or 10% rate of fire bonus in turret mode_

Now don't go overdoing it! 10% is a lot by this game's standards. Turret mode needs something, but that'd be a bit much.

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Hmmm. Actually, a defense buff on it's own is pretty poor, but a attack buff on top of it might work. What do you think of that_ You'll still be vulnerable to class A/B mechs running around your slow/stationary turret, but you'll put a hurt in their back sides in the process_

How about a defense buff and reduced overheat while in siege/turret/special mode_

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Some form of boosting also sounds reasonable. Slower or shorter to be a downgrade for the upgrade that the turret provides in armour defense.

Speed up the conversion of siege/turret/special mode and give it better mobility overall. Normal mode is fine imo... It's a huge beast!

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Also, if there is any type of "secondary armour/shield", perhaps make the damage an animation_

Would be nice.

[Subdivision]

I currently still play brawler all the time and regularly get top of the scoreboard (points, kills and k/d). Don't know if I'm just playing with new/poorer players all the time.... The only time I don't is on TDM or DM where only kills count and can't get about fast enough to find people as fast. I agree a buff would be nice but some of these suggestions are bit too much. Turret mode needs reworking, and since alpha I still don't know what it needs. Hunkering down faster would be nice and I like the idea to have a fixed shield health level, although if it is more clear how effective the current repair based system is, i.e. a health bar! it would be easier to say.

I'm ok with the current level of health, on an even trade, I take about 600/650 damage taking out a smaller mech which seems about right to me as that's what they have taken. Normally, I take less and occasionally I'm day dreaming about having a mech for real and stomping fuzzy bunnys all day long and don't do so well! hehe

[FluxX]

c0mad0r, on October 29 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

How about a pushback power when in turret mode_
Or 10% rate of fire bonus in turret mode_

Now don't go overdoing it! 10% is a lot by this game's standards. Turret mode needs something, but that'd be a bit much.

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Hmmm. Actually, a defense buff on it's own is pretty poor, but a attack buff on top of it might work. What do you think of that_ You'll still be vulnerable to class A/B mechs running around your slow/stationary turret, but you'll put a hurt in their back sides in the process_

How about a defense buff and reduced overheat while in siege/turret/special mode_

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Some form of boosting also sounds reasonable. Slower or shorter to be a downgrade for the upgrade that the turret provides in armour defense.

Speed up the conversion of siege/turret/special mode and give it better mobility overall. Normal mode is fine imo... It's a huge beast!

FluxX, on October 29 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Also, if there is any type of "secondary armour/shield", perhaps make the damage an animation_

Would be nice.

Ah, you might say 10% is too much, but we can already do it with internals/stats and the snipers bonus is basically this already.
With the animation, I'd make the turret armour work like an automatic undeploy. If you get hit for like 200-300hp, it undeploys. The benefit to counter this drawback would be more defense buffs than what there is already in the turret mode. So it would give a better bonus at first, but not be OP because it wears off quicker. It would mean small fast mechs could try hit and run, but the armour would stay up to hit an run. To bring the armour "down" or "off" you need sustained fire, which makes light mechs vulnerable to the missiles etc from the turret.

Hopefully it would even the fight up a bit. Make the turret a bit more defended against snipers and small mechs etc, but still fall to a proper attack by anything more than one opponent.

Edited by FluxX, October 30 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[My_Little_Pwny]

So we absolutely need an HP guage to show while in turret mode, whoever thought it would be a good idea to leave that out deserves to be castrated (or maybe I'm just mean).

I agree with everyone saying the turret mode needs to engage and disengage faster, but it's actually not THAT bad, provided you don't engage it in the middle of a fight. A small increase in transformation speed would be fine. It could possibly do well with either a much shorter time engaging, to allow a quick mode switch while in a firefight. Or you could give it a quick disengaging time, allowing you to bail out of a bad fight quickly. These thoughts are provided that the defense and mobility stays the same.

Another idea is to keep the slightly shorter transformation time, and give it a 30% damage reduction, faster mobility, but negate the ability to boost. This would allow it to go toe to toe with faster mechs a little better.

Or you could give a noteable damage increase, say half of the Weapon Damage ability does (or 1/4 if the ability has a particularly huge boost), as well as a noteable defense boost. This would make it a much better fire support unit.