30 replies to this topic

[OrbitaLinx]

I and a couple ppl I know have had a couple issues with the 180 turn arround while dodging. Attempting to dodge an attack and instead turning around the getting killed because of it. Just letting you know it might need to be tweeked to like "shift x" or something...

Edited by OrbitaLinx, November 08 2012 - 05:05 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Are you saying you're expecting it to boost you backwards_

If so, it doesn't. You'll get used to it and once you do, you'll see how useful it is.

[Ratchet18O_o]

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Are you saying you're expecting it to boost you backwards_

If so, it doesn't. You'll get used to it and once you do, you'll see how useful it is.

lol Yea when I played the last beta I noticed this, and it took me a bit to get used to.

So yea, it isn't a bug, and if I'm right the binding can be changed anyways. It really isn't a huge issue, it just take a little getting used to.

[DarkPulse]

Actually, on re-reading it, it seems like he or his friends are mis-hitting the keys and using the "double tap to boost/dodge" option.

It's why there's a choice to enable or disable that. If you disable it, it becomes boost key + backwards = 180.

[confusion]

It would still be nice to have a way to boost backwards though. 180 + start running/boosting takes a lot longer than just a quick jump backwards.

[MrSpaceCat]

confusion, on November 08 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

It would still be nice to have a way to boost backwards though. 180 + start running/boosting takes a lot longer than just a quick jump backwards.

Agreed. As a light mech, sometimes I just need to retreat. The whole "180 turn+run and boost away like the cowardly chicken you are" method just feels clunky...er, clunkier than a giant robot that can dodge should feel.

Adding a boost backwards would be a nice addition to dodging and mobility options.

[vince]

I disagree. It's really easy for me to start boosting after a 180 degree turnaround. Having a boost backwards would allow serious fighting advantage as you could retreat while laying suppressing fire. Not a good idea in my opinion.

[DarkPulse]

confusion, on November 08 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

It would still be nice to have a way to boost backwards though. 180 + start running/boosting takes a lot longer than just a quick jump backwards.

MrSpaceCat, on November 08 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Agreed. As a light mech, sometimes I just need to retreat. The whole "180 turn+run and boost away like the cowardly chicken you are" method just feels clunky...er, clunkier than a giant robot that can dodge should feel.

Adding a boost backwards would be a nice addition to dodging and mobility options.

It's been debated extensively since Alpha. The general community consensus is that it'd be too much of a crutch, and let you easily skate out of making a bad tactical play, all while still being able to shoot at the guys who might chase you. Snipers, for example, would abuse the spiky hedgehog out of this to prevent a heavier mech from ever getting close to them, all while still being able to fully pepper them with shots.

Furthermore, the thrusters are on your back, so it should be impossible to boost backward.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 08 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[OrbitaLinx]

I would seriously prefer if it was simply as such "shift+S=reverse boost while facing foward" and "shift+x=180 turn around" I would in no way like my "S" to turn my mech around.... It is verry annoying to people who get it but use a lot of fast thrust maneuvers... it is impossable to avoid and it will kill you. In fact I was a little bummed to find that my friend dumped the whole game because of this feature... It aperes that the way it is set up I ether have to disable boost all together or live with dying because my mech continues to revers it self. Pleas change the 180 turnaround to "fuzzy bunny+x" or simply "X" or at least make it a seperate bindable feature.

Edited by OrbitaLinx, November 09 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[THEDRIVEN]

Yeah, I was wondering about this as well.  I personally would prefer when pressing double tap back for my mech to go in reverse, and not turn my forward facing mech 180 degrees in another direction.

[KaosMike]

agreed with first post, 180 degree turn should be switched to something else, perhaps double tapping shift to do the flip, so its still the same keys, u just have to do it fast enough, if u want it

[Culex]

I'm used to it, but I still would like the idea of seeing boost on the shift key while being able to bind another key in combination (instead of s) for 180 turn. Or just a separate one-push key key just to 180 turn, seeing as its technically not a boost.

Edited by Culex, November 09 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[DarkPulse]

But then it wouldn't make sense. Plus, if it were on another key, it'd fuzzy bunny up all of us who, by now, are used to using it.

Furthermore, it still doesn't do anything for the issue that a backwards boost (at least without some kind of penalty for enabling it, like more fuel or slower overall boost speed) would be easily abused.

This isn't Armored Core, guys.

[DM30]

Hate to break this to you guys, but I seriously doubt the 180-turn is changing. I agree with the posts saying that a backward boost would be just too easy to abuse, and I am of the opinion that it should NOT be implemented.

I recall my time in some Mechwarrior forums, where a major complaint was about people using jump jets to 'poptart', as in stand behind cover, jump up, unload a massive volley of weapons and then drop back behind cover before a target can shoot back. It got to the point that entire games would just be people doing this non-stop, to the point that lots of people stopped playing the game because it wasn't fun anymore with everyone doing this. I can easily see a similar thing happening with a reverse boost, where games would devolve into people popping out from behind a wall, shooting, and boosting backward behind cover again. Put plainly, a backward boost will kill the game.

If you find yourself in a bad position where you would need a backward boost to get out of it alive, maybe you shouldn't have put yourself in that position in the first place. Your penalty for bad tactics is a WALKING backward retreat. You're just gonna have to deal with it, and learn not to make the same mistakes again. The game shouldn't hand you a free escape for bad decisions.

As has been pointed out, this has been debated before, and it likely will continue to be debated, but I'm all but certain that it won't happen. The game is fine as it is.

Edited by DM30, November 09 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[The_Silencer]

The game is fine as it is, indeed.

Although one 180º air turn would be much appreciated too.

[Culex]

DarkPulse, on November 09 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

But then it wouldn't make sense. Plus, if it were on another key, it'd fuzzy bunny up all of us who, by now, are used to using it.

Much of this game's learning curve comes from the boost system, and on another note the 180 turn. I am not for suggesting a backward boost, but that is what shift-x feels like it should do. That is why I'm suggesting for 180 turn to have its own bindable key apart from shift. The current system feels counterintuitive. I am used to it by now, but that doesn't mean it has to be difficult for every new player just because they can't customize it to what they want.

When I was learning, I remember when holding shift and side-boosting, the incredible pain I felt in my back when I pushed s (while holding shift) and swung around on accident (due to trying to walk backwards while trying to side-boost to avoid environmental clipping) and getting shot in the back. I know I wasn't alone in this.

And for those that have adjusted, it's not forcing you to change. Just have an option for current shift combo 180 turn or its own key (or a double-tap shift).

Edit: For some reason I had the letter x in my head as I typed this. Everytime I mentioned 'x', I meant 's'.

Edited by Culex, November 09 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Cyclonus]

I kept calling it the 360 button, I'm a fool.

[OrbitaLinx]

DM30, on November 09 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Hate to break this to you guys, but I seriously doubt the 180-turn is changing. I agree with the posts saying that a backward boost would be just too easy to abuse, and I am of the opinion that it should NOT be implemented.

I recall my time in some Mechwarrior forums, where a major complaint was about people using jump jets to 'poptart', as in stand behind cover, jump up, unload a massive volley of weapons and then drop back behind cover before a target can shoot back. It got to the point that entire games would just be people doing this non-stop, to the point that lots of people stopped playing the game because it wasn't fun anymore with everyone doing this. I can easily see a similar thing happening with a reverse boost, where games would devolve into people popping out from behind a wall, shooting, and boosting backward behind cover again. Put plainly, a backward boost will kill the game.

If you find yourself in a bad position where you would need a backward boost to get out of it alive, maybe you shouldn't have put yourself in that position in the first place. Your penalty for bad tactics is a WALKING backward retreat. You're just gonna have to deal with it, and learn not to make the same mistakes again. The game shouldn't hand you a free escape for bad decisions.

As has been pointed out, this has been debated before, and it likely will continue to be debated, but I'm all but certain that it won't happen. The game is fine as it is.

I have played MWO and I have played the Battletech D&D. Their is nothing wrong with using ur mech's jump jets to your advantage over mech's that don't have them... that's the point of spending the extra $$ on a mech that has them.

That aside I am not complaining that I need to run away fast I have lost several kills to 180 turn around. As I am simply dodging or trying to get a better firing solution to finish my kill I suddenly turn around and get killed. Any feature that gets players killed is broken and needs to be tweaked or removed especially when it kills a player about to make a kill. If this feature is not fixed by the 12/12/12 beta I will have no choice but to consider the game officially BROKEN. It doesn't need to be removed it simply needs to have absolutely nothing to do with W A D S unless I bind it to do so. Further more any smart engineer or pilot that has a mech designed to evade in three directions would obviously have it go in the fourth. And even further more having a reverse thrust that everyone can use is not unfair in any way. In MWO people who had mech's with out jump jets were the ones complaining. Since every one can use BOOST in HAWKEN its not unfair and would only serve to make the combat more intense, more logical and more fun!

If 180 turn around is not changed to its own separate binding and people continue to loose kills and die over it some people will probably stop playing early on.... And since I like this game I don't want that to happen lol :-) but that aside it is extremely distressing to loose a kill and die to a feature that seems cool but is improperly binded.

I do have to say that I think its a little unfair to say to players that you ether have to use 180 degree turn around or you cant use boost at all!__ The bluntness of it is their saying you have to use a broken feature that gives you an advantage most of the time until you are about to win then takes it away or you have to have a constant diss advantage... I think that is unfair and I think if it does not change by the 12/12/12 beta the games combat physics will have to be considered officially broken... witch is sad because this is the best mech game ever released to date all though we cant count Z.O.E. out.

Keep game design doctrine in mind: If a feature is steeling kills from players only to kill them off, the feature is broken and needs to be tweaked, adjusted or removed.

My official vote is that Id rather not have it that have it kill me right as I'm making the kill. Id rather have it removed that have it kill me, but Id rather have it rebinded than removed because it seems like it could be useful or cool when binded properly and not steeling my kill and providing me with deaths. And keep im mind naysayers even if ur enemy decides to be cheap and run away you can still shoot them and get the kill even more easily now that their not shooting at you.

Edited by OrbitaLinx, November 09 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[DarkPulse]

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

That aside I am not complaining that I need to run away fast I have lost several kills to 180 turn around. As I am simply dodging or trying to get a better firing solution to finish my kill I suddenly turn around and get killed. Any feature that gets players killed is broken and needs to be tweaked or removed especially when it kills a player about to make a kill. If this feature is not fixed by the 12/12/12 beta I will have no choice but to consider the game officially BROKEN. It doesn't need to be removed it simply needs to have absolutely nothing to do with W A D S unless I bind it to do so. Further more any smart engineer or pilot that has a mech designed to evade in three directions would obviously have it go in the fourth. And even further more having a reverse thrust that everyone can use is not unfair in any way. In MWO people who had mech's with out jump jets were the ones complaining. Since every one can use BOOST in HAWKEN its not unfair and would only serve to make the combat more intense, more logical and more fun!

It's not the devs' fault if you smack Boost + Backward thinking it will boost you backwards - this is something you've trained yourself into, apparently. As for your second suggestion: Again, it would make penalties for bad play non-existant. Your Sharpshooter could scout an energy point, see there's 2-3 guys on there, then boost backwards well out of range (aside from other Sharpshooters) and then begin peppering the guys who come after you while they're well out of range of their shots. Even if they don't come after you, you know they're there and can report it to your team, giving you an extreme tactical advantage - if you know two of them are at this point, you know that the other points are where there's likely to be less resistance.

That's simply unacceptable.

The whole point is that you need to make smart tactical play. If you see 2-3 guys on there and you're gunning it solo, if you want to get away, turn and burn. But you should not be able to shoot them (after all, you made the mistake), and if they chase you, it's nobody's fault but your own.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

If 180 turn around is not changed to its own separate binding and people continue to loose kills and die over it some people will probably stop playing early on.... And since I like this game I don't want that to happen lol :-) but that aside it is extremely distressing to loose a kill and die to a feature that seems cool but is improperly binded.

Devs found it was proper. Most of the better players seem to have no trouble using it or making use of it. You're simply being outskilled here, and need to get yourself into the mindset of Boost + Backward doing a 180... not a backward boost.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I do have to say that I think its a little unfair to say to players that you ether have to use 180 degree turn around or you cant use boost at all!__ The bluntness of it is their saying you have to use a broken feature that gives you an advantage most of the time until you are about to win then takes it away or you have to have a constant diss advantage... I think that is unfair and I think if it does not change by the 12/12/12 beta the games combat physics will have to be considered officially broken... witch is sad because this is the best mech game ever released to date all though we cant count Z.O.E. out.

Again, the whole idea of this is so that you don't have an easy out if you make a bad tactical decision. If you rush on ahead and suddenly two guys come after you, you should not be able to just fly backwards while still shooting them. It'd be way too easy, and it'd make some close-range classes utterly useless, since you can hit them but they have no simple way to close in on you as you'd just boost backwards as much as you can (and you'd be able to keep them there since a B-Class will get more boost out of their fuel than a C-Class).

The way it is now, at least with turning and burning, you can still outrun them, but you're not allowed to pepper them with basically risk-free damage. They can chase you, and by the time you can turn around after your fuel runs out, they're at least decently close enough to the point that they can still hit you, and from there it all comes down to player skill since you're at an obvious armor disadvantage.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Keep game design doctrine in mind: If a feature is steeling kills from players only to kill them off, the feature is broken and needs to be tweaked, adjusted or removed.

Some mechs can boost faster than me, so it steals kills. Quick, let's remove all boosting!

Some guns are better than mine. Quick, let's remove all guns!

Some computers can run the game better. Quick, let's remove all the faster computers!

In a word: No. The player who is better able to make use of the game's mechanics should win; the lower-skilled player should practice.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

My official vote is that Id rather not have it that have it kill me right as I'm making the kill. Id rather have it removed that have it kill me, but Id rather have it rebinded than removed because it seems like it could be useful or cool when binded properly and not steeling my kill and providing me with deaths. And keep im mind naysayers even if ur enemy decides to be cheap and run away you can still shoot them and get the kill even more easily now that their not shooting at you.

Once again, you simply haven't adjusted to the learning curve. I hated it my first day in Alpha 2 (they only day I got to play... seriously bad timing with Borderlands 2 there, guys ) but beginning in CBE1 I began to learn it, and now it's an almost indispensible part of my tactics.

You can learn it with time. Most of us have. It takes about 10-15 hours to make full use of it but once you do, you realize how much more tactically sound it can be. I can't tell you how many times I suckered a guy into following me if I was half-dead, only for him to think my turn and burn meant an easy kill, and when he followed me he got a rude awakening and I got a vicious kill.

So in short, bust yourself out of the habit of "Boost + Backward = Dash" and get it into the mentality of "Boost + Backward = Spin." Start trying to consciously use it if you have to turn around, as opposed to doing manual rotation. That helps.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 09 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[OrbitaLinx]

DarkPulse, on November 09 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

That aside I am not complaining that I need to run away fast I have lost several kills to 180 turn around. As I am simply dodging or trying to get a better firing solution to finish my kill I suddenly turn around and get killed. Any feature that gets players killed is broken and needs to be tweaked or removed especially when it kills a player about to make a kill. If this feature is not fixed by the 12/12/12 beta I will have no choice but to consider the game officially BROKEN. It doesn't need to be removed it simply needs to have absolutely nothing to do with W A D S unless I bind it to do so. Further more any smart engineer or pilot that has a mech designed to evade in three directions would obviously have it go in the fourth. And even further more having a reverse thrust that everyone can use is not unfair in any way. In MWO people who had mech's with out jump jets were the ones complaining. Since every one can use BOOST in HAWKEN its not unfair and would only serve to make the combat more intense, more logical and more fun!

It's not the devs' fault if you smack Boost + Backward thinking it will boost you backwards - this is something you've trained yourself into, apparently. As for your second suggestion: Again, it would make penalties for bad play non-existant. Your Sharpshooter could scout an energy point, see there's 2-3 guys on there, then boost backwards well out of range (aside from other Sharpshooters) and then begin peppering the guys who come after you while they're well out of range of their shots. Even if they don't come after you, you know they're there and can report it to your team, giving you an extreme tactical advantage - if you know two of them are at this point, you know that the other points are where there's likely to be less resistance.

That's simply unacceptable.

The whole point is that you need to make smart tactical play. If you see 2-3 guys on there and you're gunning it solo, if you want to get away, turn and burn. But you should not be able to shoot them (after all, you made the mistake), and if they chase you, it's nobody's fault but your own.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

If 180 turn around is not changed to its own separate binding and people continue to loose kills and die over it some people will probably stop playing early on.... And since I like this game I don't want that to happen lol :-) but that aside it is extremely distressing to loose a kill and die to a feature that seems cool but is improperly binded.

Devs found it was proper. Most of the better players seem to have no trouble using it or making use of it. You're simply being outskilled here, and need to get yourself into the mindset of Boost + Backward doing a 180... not a backward boost.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I do have to say that I think its a little unfair to say to players that you ether have to use 180 degree turn around or you cant use boost at all!__ The bluntness of it is their saying you have to use a broken feature that gives you an advantage most of the time until you are about to win then takes it away or you have to have a constant diss advantage... I think that is unfair and I think if it does not change by the 12/12/12 beta the games combat physics will have to be considered officially broken... witch is sad because this is the best mech game ever released to date all though we cant count Z.O.E. out.

Again, the whole idea of this is so that you don't have an easy out if you make a bad tactical decision. If you rush on ahead and suddenly two guys come after you, you should not be able to just fly backwards while still shooting them. It'd be way too easy, and it'd make some close-range classes utterly useless, since you can hit them but they have no simple way to close in on you as you'd just boost backwards as much as you can (and you'd be able to keep them there since a B-Class will get more boost out of their fuel than a C-Class).

The way it is now, at least with turning and burning, you can still outrun them, but you're not allowed to pepper them with basically risk-free damage. They can chase you, and by the time you can turn around after your fuel runs out, they're at least decently close enough to the point that they can still hit you, and from there it all comes down to player skill since you're at an obvious armor disadvantage.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Keep game design doctrine in mind: If a feature is steeling kills from players only to kill them off, the feature is broken and needs to be tweaked, adjusted or removed.

Some mechs can boost faster than me, so it steals kills. Quick, let's remove all boosting!

Some guns are better than mine. Quick, let's remove all guns!

Some computers can run the game better. Quick, let's remove all the faster computers!

In a word: No. The player who is better able to make use of the game's mechanics should win; the lower-skilled player should practice.

OrbitaLinx, on November 09 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

My official vote is that Id rather not have it that have it kill me right as I'm making the kill. Id rather have it removed that have it kill me, but Id rather have it rebinded than removed because it seems like it could be useful or cool when binded properly and not steeling my kill and providing me with deaths. And keep im mind naysayers even if ur enemy decides to be cheap and run away you can still shoot them and get the kill even more easily now that their not shooting at you.

Once again, you simply haven't adjusted to the learning curve. I hated it my first day in Alpha 2 (they only day I got to play... seriously bad timing with Borderlands 2 there, guys ) but beginning in CBE1 I began to learn it, and now it's an almost indispensible part of my tactics.

You can learn it with time. Most of us have. It takes about 10-15 hours to make full use of it but once you do, you realize how much more tactically sound it can be. I can't tell you how many times I suckered a guy into following me if I was half-dead, only for him to think my turn and burn meant an easy kill, and when he followed me he got a rude awakening and I got a vicious kill.

So in short, bust yourself out of the habit of "Boost + Backward = Dash" and get it into the mentality of "Boost + Backward = Spin." Start trying to consciously use it if you have to turn around, as opposed to doing manual rotation. That helps.

Is not learning curve, ur already shifting W A D and ur not supposed to shift S___ Thats just rediculous. Further more every other mech game I have played that has a boost, has had a revers boost but if players are against reverse boost that has been in every mech game that has a boost mode.. than I'd rather have no reverse boost and no 180 degree turn around or the game is broken.

I should not have to sacrifice all boost to not have the engine turn my mech around when I try to keep my enemy at range and properly targeted.

I should not have to releas shift in order to move backwards in fast action close quater combat.

You have to further understand that I do NOT turn around on an enemy in combat, I dot NOT run away. I have been trained that to turn ur back on an enemy is to die. I will never use it other than unintentionally or not in close combat. Further more when did games start "punishing players."

Now thrusting in reverse is just good sound and obvious tactic, its called KEEPING YOUR ENEMY AT RANGE and is indeed a standard military tactic. Turning tale and running is only standard to the french and last I herd the game is not french. Now I can see this feature being used to spot enemys and to snipe as the tactic in sniping is to fire and change possition emediatly.

Further more every other game in existance has set turn arround, or look back to X for this exact reason.

If ur fighting me up close or far away if u use 180 degree turn around ur going down lol

Reverse boost also has the added bonus of making close combat more interesting because both player now have a full range of movement and can have extremely intense battle's bast on reflexes, hand eye acuity and skill.

By your deffinition if u are directly engaging an enemy at ur 12 and a new enemy jumps down from a building at your 9 you should not be allowed to move backwards to avoid getting hit by a rocket on ur left but should instead just die or be forced to turn around and die with no kill.


Further I have indeed gotten used to it, it is still impossable to completely avoid and I still dont like it at all. I simply want it off my W A D S. Wheather there is a reverse boost or not is far less of an issue it makes sence but its not enough to ruin combat. I dont care if it is still in the game I just want it of my W A D S.

Edited by OrbitaLinx, November 09 2012 - 07:21 PM.