22 replies to this topic

[Underquotes]

So, Weapons Coolant. I've seen a few posts here and there where people say it's way better than any other ability, and unfortunately I'm inclined to agree. Most of the opinions I've seen, as well as my own, are that it's good because you use it in the middle of a fight and then you keep shooting. It boils down to effectively doubling how long you can fight. The obvious solution, then, is to nerf it. Make it have a longer cooldown, or maybe reduce the duration to only 1 second so that it won't completely eliminate a full heat gauge. However, is this really the best course of action_ In order to figure out why it's so good, and then the best course of action, we have to analyze. Specifically, we need to look at all the other abilities and figure out what sets Weapons Coolant apart from them, and then what to do about it. A lot of this will seem obvious, but it's no less valid for it, and it should help illustrate my point.

Let's start off with the Turret Modes for C-Class mechs. I don't care for any arguments on whether or not it's actually useful to go into turret mode, what matters here is the concept, the point of it. So what is the point_ It's pretty simple: defending. Turret mode is quite clearly, from a conceptual standpoint, a defensive ability. Players are expected to use it when they are on a point, whether that be the AA in siege mode or a silo in missile assault to increase their armor and therefore be better at not dying on the point.

Then there's the Infiltrator's Camouflage. Camouflage is straightforward as well: turn yourself invisible. But what is the use suggested by this_ Two come to mind, both of which I will borrow DotA terms from. Initiation and escape. However, escape is not a particularly viable use of the Camouflage. If enemies see you running away, then you suddenly disappear, they are going to keep shooting towards you. It may help you escape, yes, but the enemy still knows your general direction, and if they come after you, your Camouflage won't have saved you, but merely delayed the inevitable. Initiation is a whole different story though. The whole reason boils down to this simple question: Which is easier to kill_ Someone who knows you're there, or someone who does not_ Clearly, the player who is unaware of you will be much easier to kill, and Camouflage is obviously a valuable tool for getting those conditions in a game.

Next is Weapon Damage, on Sharpshooter and Berserker. Again, very simple: you deal increased damage for the duration. But why do these classes have it_ Well, look at their roles. The Berserker is conceptually similar to the Scout from Team Fortress 2. Typically, they should only fight enemies one-on-one and then get out before anyone else shows up to save them. Due to their low health and high speed, they should get in, kill someone, and get out, and the longer they're in, the more dangerous it gets. Thus, Weapons Damage helps them out with their playstyle by allowing them to kill targets faster and therefore get out sooner. Sharpshooter has a somewhat similar idea going on. Due to the designs of the maps in Hawken, there are very few sniping positions that have a clear line of sight to most other areas, and there's a lot of cover around even in those areas. Sharpshooters have a limited window during which to destroy a target, so Weapon Damage allows them to more reliably destroy targets during those opportunities.

So now we come to Weapons Coolant. Weapons Coolant removes all heat buildup over a very short period of time (I believe 2 seconds). The logical conclusion on when to use it is then right before you overheat, so that you effectively double your firing time.

Now, here's where it gets a little interesting. Every single other ability is best used before you fight. Weapons Coolant is best used in the exact middle of a fight. Suddenly, the difference between Weapons Coolant and all the other abilities becomes clear. Weapons Damage should be used in the milliseconds before you start firing on someone. Turret Mode should be used while no one is shooting at you, while standing at a point you expect will be attacked. Camouflage should be used when no one can see you, allowing you to get behind your enemy and get some easy damage and even kills in. All of these abilities require planning. Weapons Coolant, however, only requires you to look at the heat gauge and hit F when it gets too red. So, why not change it to be like the other abilities, instead of just nerfing it_

My suggestion is to change Weapons Coolant from a heat removing ability to a heat suppressing ability. Instead of taking away all heat over its duration, it should instead reduce all heat generation by 50% for 10 seconds. This way the ability will require planning, just like every other ability. Players would still be able to greatly increase their firing duration, however they would have to consciously think about the fight they're going into and specifically use it because they think they will need it. This solution seems a lot more reasonable than simply nerfing it or ignoring it, and allows it to better fit in with the rest of the ability mechanics.

[RudaForce]

Wow, someone who knows what they're talking about. We need some more of you! Anyways, I like this idea, though it seems similar to how it already is (Although your solution is still better than what it is right now). With your solution in place, someone would just wait until a C-Class mech comes at them, then that would be a viable time to use your coolants, just not always. There have been many cases where C-Mechs die very quickly, and others not so much (Yes, I'm looking at you Female ). This requires you to know your enemies more than previously, where you required no former knowledge of anything; just eyesight to see your heat-bars.

Secondly, while I'm in complete favor of your idea, I feel that 10 seconds is a bit high, and was thinking that a 5 or 7.5 second 50% less heatbuildup would be more preferred. Of course, this may very well be too short in-game, but that's my opinion.

[Underquotes]

Maybe 10 seconds is a bit high, but at least it's something that can be meaningfully adjusted, unlike the current Weapons Coolant. I simply went with 10 seconds because I think that's how long Weapon Damage lasts, and Camouflage is also a similar length. I haven't specifically looked at how long any abilities last, I just see the time left when I sometimes glance at it and then I guessed at how long they last when making this post.

[Sparkard]

+1

[Spawny]

Agreed. Would be a change for the better.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Disagreed.
It is the one thing that can save Assault class from a dedicated Sharpshooter, a full health Brawler, and let's not even start on the Berserkers, especially when the Berserker is lvl 20 and using the atrocity that currently is the Vulcan Cannon.

[Spawny]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Disagreed.
It is the one thing that can save Assault class from a dedicated Sharpshooter, a full health Brawler, and let's not even start on the Berserkers, especially when the Berserker is lvl 20 and using the atrocity that currently is the Vulcan Cannon.

Meh, my berserker is level 16 and I could pretty much beat a level 20 guy with a vulcan every encouter. Having a vulcan isn't everything. It does help though.
I bet it will get removed for A classes. I hope we get an "in your face" weapon in return.

[Underquotes]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Disagreed.
It is the one thing that can save Assault class from a dedicated Sharpshooter, a full health Brawler, and let's not even start on the Berserkers, especially when the Berserker is lvl 20 and using the atrocity that currently is the Vulcan Cannon.

Tell me how, exactly, Weapons Coolant helps you fight a Sharpshooter_ If you're far away from him, the Sharpshooter is so hard to hit with your weapons that it's a waste of time to fire at him, and if he's close up, he's very little threat to you because of how bad their weapons are for close-up combat. Any fights that happen close up should end quickly due to the Assault class's superior close-range weaponry; either he will be destroyed or (vastly more likely) he will run away. Fights from far away are nearly guaranteed to go in the Sharpshooter's favor simply because he can actually hit you with his weapons.

Against a full-health Brawler I can sort of understand, but you seem to be ignoring what my suggestion would allow you to do. Currently, what you're talking about is fighting a Brawler from full health, and partway through the fight activating Weapons Coolant because you haven't yet killed him. With my suggestion, you activate it immediately, allowing you to deal damage longer. The overall effect is basically the same, the only difference is you have to use it beforehand instead of in the middle of the fight.

Against a Berserker, Vulcan or not, Weapons Coolant again has little effect. The Berserker mech class has low health and very high damage, so this implies that any fights with a Berserker should end rather quickly. One of you dies, or one of you runs away because you're about to die.  How does Weapons Coolant help in this regard_ And should the Berserker have the Vulcan then the fight should be extremely short, simply because that's how the Vulcan was designed: an extremely powerful weapon that cannot fire for extended periods of time. Any balancing issues aside, doesn't this further suggest that Weapons Coolant is not useful against them_

Edited by Underquotes, November 14 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Ace4225]

I love that you've put a lot of thought into this, but I'd have to disagree with your argument that Weapons Coolant is currently the best specialty.

Yes, the fortified mode of the C class is pretty much useless (and I'm pro with a Brawler), but I really like the double-damage specialty for the zerker/sharpshooter. I suck with the sharpshooter only because the Sabot rifle is a pain for me to aim, but on the zerker, double-damage saves me just as often if not more often than the coolant on the assault (because it allows me to deal damage quicker; coolant just lets me shoot longer. In the meantime, I could be killed and then coolant is useless.)

Edited by Ace4225, November 14 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Underquotes, on November 14 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Tell me how, exactly, Weapons Coolant helps you fight a Sharpshooter_ If you're far away from him, the Sharpshooter is so hard to hit with your weapons that it's a waste of time to fire at him, and if he's close up, he's very little threat to you because of how bad their weapons are for close-up combat. Any fights that happen close up should end quickly due to the Assault class's superior close-range weaponry; either he will be destroyed or (vastly more likely) he will run away. Fights from far away are nearly guaranteed to go in the Sharpshooter's favor simply because he can actually hit you with his weapons.

Well it's fairly simple; even at the effective range of a Sharpshooter, the Assault class can hit and KILL the Sharpshooter, provided the Sharpshooter doesn't constantly have a clear line of sight on the Assault, because then the Sabot comes into play and it quickly ends for the Assault.
The problem is that for the Assault, this approach requires a LOT of expended ammo and so it causes a LOT of heat.
Especially if you're also using TOW's to take that Sharpshooter down.

You are ALSO not taking into account that an experienced Sharpshooter pilot can, pure damage wise, outgun the Assault (and sometimes even the Brawler and Rocketeer) even at close range if he turns on his Damage Amp and uses his Sabot the right way, as yhe Sabot is a MONSTER with Damage Amp on at close range.
It also helps if the Sharpshooter uses any of his single use items the right way during such an encounter.
I've done it many times, and i've been called a Cheater for it so often that i lost count.
Usually Assaults that fall to my Sharpshooter at close range either don't get the mechanics of the Coolant ability, or have already used it.

Now, IF the Assault manages to dodge the Sabot shots though, and survives long enough for my Sharpshooter to overheat, and still has his coolant, he can take me down.
Without the coolant however, he'd overheat halfway through finishing me off, and he would either have to hide and hope i don't kill him while he cools down, or break off and run (and still hope i don't take him down).

Underquotes, on November 14 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Against a full-health Brawler I can sort of understand, but you seem to be ignoring what my suggestion would allow you to do. Currently, what you're talking about is fighting a Brawler from full health, and partway through the fight activating Weapons Coolant because you haven't yet killed him. With my suggestion, you activate it immediately, allowing you to deal damage longer. The overall effect is basically the same, the only difference is you have to use it beforehand instead of in the middle of the fight.

I'm not ignoring anything, you are simply suggesting the kind of nerf that ruins the entire concept of the cooldown and basically renders it as useless as the Brawler's special ability.
What you are suggesting would NOT give the Assault enough of a cooldown to take out a Brawler or Rocketeer, and it simply makes no sense to nerf the ability like this.
Not to mention i get the feeling you are not using your own Mech's abilities to their fullest extent, leading to your analogy of this being overpowered, when it in fact is the ONE ability that saves the Assault from becoming an easy prey for both the A and C class.

Underquotes, on November 14 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Against a Berserker, Vulcan or not, Weapons Coolant again has little effect. The Berserker mech class has low health and very high damage, so this implies that any fights with a Berserker should end rather quickly.

Oh you have got to be kidding me...
Have you seen how some of these guys move _
They have an almost constant bead on you, while you can only HOPE to keep up in the (in comparison) rather sluggish Assault.
Without the coolant your guns will overheat before you've even taken one of these guys down but a third of his health, and he's still dancing circles around you, guns happily chattering away in bursts.

Underquotes, on November 14 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

One of you dies, or one of you runs away because you're about to die.

Yeah, the Assault dies, without the coolant, because there is NO USE running from a Berserker in an Assault Mech, those little sob's are too fast.

Underquotes, on November 14 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

How does Weapons Coolant help in this regard_ And should the Berserker have the Vulcan then the fight should be extremely short, simply because that's how the Vulcan was designed: an extremely powerful weapon that cannot fire for extended periods of time. Any balancing issues aside, doesn't this further suggest that Weapons Coolant is not useful against them_

No it doesn't, because (thankfully) not every encounter with a Berserker is at close range.
If it was, the Assault wouldn't stand a chance in Hell.
At mid range though, where, AGAIN, you need to expend a boatload of ammo to get these guys to keel over and die, the coolant comes into play.
The Berserker can run faster, but if you are skilled enough and know the map, you can outgun the sob if you know when to dodge out of his way and then dodge back to finish him off.
But considering how much heats builds up in that process, without the coolant it's a LOST FIGHT EVERY TIME.


Now, that you play every class inside it's exact comfort zone and use every ability the way you think it should be, doesn't mean everyone else does.
I know several players who use their Sharpshooter as a mixed Recon/Assault class succesfully, because they take chances and know their Mechs intimately.
Same as me using my Assault the way a Sharpshooter uses his Mech for long range; unconventional, but effective if done right.
This is where the special abilities can be a lifesaver, and where an experienced pilot can fullfil multiple roles and save a TDM match for his team.

But with the nerf you are so crassly suggesting, there'd be no more use for the Assault other than using it against other Assaults, and as backup for the Brawlers and Rocketeers, and even then only at close range.

So no, i don't see how your suggestion would work to make the game better, just worse for the Assault class.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, November 15 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[NZXT_NightRaven]

Your idea... I LIKE IT! Very well thought out and makes logical sense!

Edited by NZXT_NightRaven, November 15 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[DM30]

@Dread_Lord_Pitr, your reasoning has a rather large flaw, in my opinion, and that's factoring in the damage that these two abilities allow for.

As the Assault's coolant ability stands now, as the OP stated, it can essentially double an Assault mech's firing time, whereas a damage boost ability on mechs like the Beserker only provides a 10% damage boost over 10 seconds (or maybe less, not completely sure, and not by any means "double damage" as was claimed earlier). Sticking with these two mechs, let's do a comparison:

Both have the exact same weapons loadout without counting level 20 unlocks, so there's no variable there. Now, say both mechs use their respective abilities: The Berserker, as already stated, gets a 10% damage boost over 10 seconds, which basically serves to remove some/all of the armour gap between the two mechs and reduce the fight to a battle of mobility (which the Berserker has an edge, for sure, but it does not leave the fight one-sided by any means).

Meanwhile, the Assault weathers out this damage burst with its armour/uses cover to run out the Berserker's buff period, then uses their coolant ability, giving them potentially up to 100% in increased damage over time if they're smart with dodging and using cover to give themselves that time. On top of that, if the assault pilot HAS been using cover to keep the Berserker from outmaneuvering them, then they'll likely only need to use this coolant ability when the Berserker's own weapons are also overheating (Your argument about the Assault overheating before the Berserker is frankly complete garbage, because with the exact same weapons firing at the same time, they'll both overheat together). This would swing the battle decisively in the Assault's favour, and leave the Berserker in a very bad spot.

So, I agree with the first post. Instead of a complete heat cooldown over the ability's period of effect, merely reducing/blocking the heat generated from its weapons over that time without decreasing its entire heat buildup would be more balanced with other abilities in my opinion. (Again, 10% in a short period vs 100% over a bit longer. Not exactly level ground).

EDIT: This post is not meant to say that an Assault is a guaranteed win over a Berserker by any means, just that in terms of abilities alone the Assault currently has a considerable edge.

Edited by DM30, November 15 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[MK501]

Though I like the suggestion to change from no heat build up to heat reduction for a short period, I can't say I've had trouble taking down assault mechs, neither from far away or close up. I'll play the assault class a bit more myself in CB3 to test the ability more thorough.

[ApoC_101]

Yea, I like this idea. It's more feasible, more sensible and better aligned with the other powerups.

[Underquotes]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

Well it's fairly simple; even at the effective range of a Sharpshooter, the Assault class can hit and KILL the Sharpshooter, provided the Sharpshooter doesn't constantly have a clear line of sight on the Assault, because then the Sabot comes into play and it quickly ends for the Assault.
The problem is that for the Assault, this approach requires a LOT of expended ammo and so it causes a LOT of heat.
Especially if you're also using TOW's to take that Sharpshooter down.

Why would a Sharpshooter stand still long enough for an Assault to kill them from far away_ Why would they not just go behind cover and repair if they're getting shot at_

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

You are ALSO not taking into account that an experienced Sharpshooter pilot can, pure damage wise, outgun the Assault (and sometimes even the Brawler and Rocketeer) even at close range if he turns on his Damage Amp and uses his Sabot the right way, as yhe Sabot is a MONSTER with Damage Amp on at close range.
It also helps if the Sharpshooter uses any of his single use items the right way during such an encounter.
I've done it many times, and i've been called a Cheater for it so often that i lost count.
Usually Assaults that fall to my Sharpshooter at close range either don't get the mechanics of the Coolant ability, or have already used it.

Now, IF the Assault manages to dodge the Sabot shots though, and survives long enough for my Sharpshooter to overheat, and still has his coolant, he can take me down.
Without the coolant however, he'd overheat halfway through finishing me off, and he would either have to hide and hope i don't kill him while he cools down, or break off and run (and still hope i don't take him down).

I only fight Sharpshooters at close range with Assault, because I want to capitalize on my mech's advantages and their mech's disadvantages. Additionally, I always try to come at them from behind so that I can get some easy hits with my weapons. This sometimes results in quick a kill, but the majority of the time they simply run away. So why do they run_ Because they know that the Sharpshooter is inferior the the Assault when it comes to close combat. Weapons Coolant is worthless for such a short encounter. If one of these fights ends up going on for a long time, it's because the Sharpshooter didn't run and Assault pilot is missing way too many of their shots. The issue there is bad aim, not the mechanics. Additionally, I've read in a lot of posts arguing about the balancing of the Sharpshooter that the Sharpshooter has some of the lowest DPS in the game, implying that they're pretty bad in drawn-out fights and swinging the favor even further towards the Assault for a longer battle.

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I'm not ignoring anything, you are simply suggesting the kind of nerf that ruins the entire concept of the cooldown and basically renders it as useless as the Brawler's special ability.
What you are suggesting would NOT give the Assault enough of a cooldown to take out a Brawler or Rocketeer, and it simply makes no sense to nerf the ability like this.
Not to mention i get the feeling you are not using your own Mech's abilities to their fullest extent, leading to your analogy of this being overpowered, when it in fact is the ONE ability that saves the Assault from becoming an easy prey for both the A and C class.

I'm sorry, but you must not understand what I'm suggesting. To reiterate: both versions of Weapons Coolant, the one currently in the game as well as my suggestion, have the same basic end result: you can shoot for longer without overheating. What you're trying to argue is that my suggested version would be completely worthless and prevent you from firing for longer than without using it, which is not the case. As DM30 has pointed out, Berserker's ability increases damage output by 10%, while the current Weapons Coolant allows you to potentially double the amount of damage you deal in a single fight. Even assuming careful heat management by the Berserker, the best he can hope for is a 10% increase in overall damage dealt. No other class can increase their damage output in a single fight like the Assault currently can. How is this fair_

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

Oh you have got to be kidding me...
Have you seen how some of these guys move _
They have an almost constant bead on you, while you can only HOPE to keep up in the (in comparison) rather sluggish Assault.
Without the coolant your guns will overheat before you've even taken one of these guys down but a third of his health, and he's still dancing circles around you, guns happily chattering away in bursts.


Yeah, the Assault dies, without the coolant, because there is NO USE running from a Berserker in an Assault Mech, those little sob's are too fast.


No it doesn't, because (thankfully) not every encounter with a Berserker is at close range.
If it was, the Assault wouldn't stand a chance in Hell.
At mid range though, where, AGAIN, you need to expend a boatload of ammo to get these guys to keel over and die, the coolant comes into play.
The Berserker can run faster, but if you are skilled enough and know the map, you can outgun the sob if you know when to dodge out of his way and then dodge back to finish him off.
But considering how much heats builds up in that process, without the coolant it's a LOST FIGHT EVERY TIME.

As I said, Berserkers have low health and high damage output, implying battle with them should be quick. Additionally, their high mobility suits them for close-range combat. Assuming that a Berserker can aim well, he should be able to reliably kill an Assault mech, and it should happen long before either mech overheats. If the Berserker is firing from any range beyond short then the Assault should be able to get into cover before he's destroyed, at which point either the Berserker gives up or he goes in for the kill, leading to a close combat situation where he has an advantage.

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 14 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

Now, that you play every class inside it's exact comfort zone and use every ability the way you think it should be, doesn't mean everyone else does.
I know several players who use their Sharpshooter as a mixed Recon/Assault class succesfully, because they take chances and know their Mechs intimately.
Same as me using my Assault the way a Sharpshooter uses his Mech for long range; unconventional, but effective if done right.
This is where the special abilities can be a lifesaver, and where an experienced pilot can fullfil multiple roles and save a TDM match for his team.

But with the nerf you are so crassly suggesting, there'd be no more use for the Assault other than using it against other Assaults, and as backup for the Brawlers and Rocketeers, and even then only at close range.

So no, i don't see how your suggestion would work to make the game better, just worse for the Assault class.

Your entire argument is that my suggestion effectively removes Weapons Coolant, which it does not. It's still there, it still allows you to fire for longer, it's just something that requires more deliberate action than staring at the heat gauge and hitting F.

Edited by Underquotes, November 15 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[3Jane]

I like the idea you suggest, it feels more natural. However I just don't see it (weapons coolant) as being particularly stronger than the others.

Its just going to mean you activate the ability a bit earlier rather than at the peak of your heat limit. How is that any different_ Its just a straight up nerf.

It'd be simpler to just have it negate your current heat entirely instantly and end if you want to make it a little weaker but still REALLY effective overall.

[Deu]

I have to disagree because even after such a nerf it won't be enough and everyone will have something they don't like in the game. Changing it from removing heat to heat reduction by 50% is the same thing. Both of them double your time you can fire. It's fine the way it is. It's an ability that only helps in oh fuzzy bunny situations that's why it seems so useful.

[Underquotes]

I have to disagree with calling it a nerf. Oddly, both of you, Deu and 3Jane, say that it's a nerf, but then go on to say "Changing it from removing heat to heat reduction by 50% is the same thing. Both of them double your time you can fire," and "How is that any different_" respectively. Sorry to seem if I'm nitpicking, but saying it makes no difference means that it is functionally the exact same and therefore cannot possibly be either buff or nerf. What I'm seeking to change here is the degree of depth, not necessarily make it stronger or weaker (though if that is actually necessary then so be it). My suggestion would change Weapons Coolant from the mindless "Hit F when hot" ability it is right now to an ability that requires you to think about it. Similar to choosing when to use your HE Charges involves depth and thinking (do you use it on the first enemy you see, or do you save it for a tough spot, or save it for a particularly dangerous target_), so should all abilities, and as it stands Weapons Coolant is the only one that does not require any decision-making.

[3Jane]

I just mean its the same or almost the same about deciding when to use it. You'd just use it earlier that's all because it would be ineffective to leave it as late as we do with the current ability .

At the moment there is tactical use/planning, you just don't see it. Its in deciding to fire constantly and have to use the cooldown or to actually manage your heat so that you don't need to use it or can use it later as you say, like a HE charge. Its in deciding which fights to take with/without the cooldown up.

Edited by 3Jane, November 15 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Underquotes]

Unfortunately you make an excellent point there. I suppose I never saw it because I have only ever needed to use it when it's time to go for the AA in Siege mode, and the few times I played in those 32-player Missile Assault servers. I suppose you could say the thinking was done for me and I never got to see that decision to make.

I see now that my suggestion is perhaps not all that helpful to solve the perceived problem. I'd certainly love to see my suggestion implemented, even though, as you're saying, it would not really change much. Now, the only thing that I can fairly confidently say would be beneficial about my solution is that it would promote awareness in newer players by requiring them to better pay attention to the fight they are about to get into. I agree that it would feel more natural, though that's probably more a matter of opinion. Some players might find it completely counter-intuitive. Anything else I cannot predict, I would need to see it in action and use it myself to be able to decide what other effects it would have, if any.

Edited by Underquotes, November 15 2012 - 02:47 PM.