55 replies to this topic

[HandSlander]

Ace4225, on November 16 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

HandSlander, on November 16 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

They should introduce DX11, TXAA, Ambient Occlusion and other such technologies to make it look nice without (a) a huge performance hit or ( introducing what is effectively static interference as post

Newer NVidia GPUs are capable of adding Ambient Occlusion and TXAA beyond the game's programmed graphics.

Wrong on both counts unfortunately. I have a Kepler GPU and the latest nVidia beta drivers.

TXAA has to be integrated into the game by the developers. It is not something that can be forced. You are thinking of FXAA.

You also cannot force Ambient Occlusion. nVidia lets you force it off or opt for a bias toward performance or quality though.

Edited by HandSlander, November 16 2012 - 01:24 AM.

[Roundlay]

Ace4225, on November 16 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

...that could just be a technique to make non-bump-mapped surfaces and less detailed models appear softer and more realistic

Right. The same technique is used to smooth out banding in still digital images. This only speaks to the utility of the feature though; the previous posts were discussing the noise conceptually.

[Ace4225]

HandSlander, on November 16 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

TXAA has to be integrated into the game by the developers. It is not something that can be forced. You are thinking of FXAA.

You also cannot force Ambient Occlusion. nVidia lets you force it off or opt for a bias toward performance or quality though.

right. FXAA is what I meant. However, I just have an on/off option for Ambient Occlusion. I have been able to bring Ambient Occlusion into games that didn't have them (such as NFS Shift and UT3). For Shift, however, I had to turn it off as it was blackening out glowing gauges/lights on cars.

My system specs [if they help]:

AMD FX 8-core @3.6 ghz
NVidia GeForce GTX 560 GPU
16 GB DDR5 RAM (@ 2133mhz)

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

Edited by Ace4225, November 16 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Machineabuse]

A display would not project directional light read:shadows inside the cockpit. No amount of rationalization is going to change the physical properties of how light works.

Additionally, on holographically projected displays there is only grain on the projected elements, not the whole sheet of glass. Unless one is trying to suggest that Hawken's holographic rendering is vastly inferior to what we have commercially available right now.

Edited by Machineabuse, November 16 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[HandSlander]

Machineabuse, on November 16 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

A display would not project directional light read:shadows inside the cockpit. No amount of rationalization is going to change the physical properties of how light works.

Lol what___ If you sit in front of a big bright screen in a pitch black room you will get a silhouette. What are you talking about___

[Urban_UK]

Please give us a toggle for film grain, I really cant  stand any amount of film grain effect

[Ace4225]

HandSlander, on November 17 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

If you sit in front of a big bright screen in a pitch black room you will get a silhouette.

Yes, but it's not intense enough to project harsh shadows. In the Hawken cockpits, you can see the shadows of buildings, trees, etc stretching into your cockpit exactly the way they would through glass. If the cockpit were merely rounded screens displaying an image of what was outside, you wouldn't get those global-lighting-based directional shadows like that.

Like I said earlier, I don't think there's an explanation other than that the devs haven't finished all the interiors [or perhaps they don't care to.]

Edited by Ace4225, November 17 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Ace4225]

P.S. watch this. [skip to 0:54]

Edited by Ace4225, November 17 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[OdinTheWise]

From what I have noticed is that there is more noise as you move around in and out of shadows and tunnels, especially on Titan

[OdinTheWise]

Ace4225, on November 17 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

HandSlander, on November 17 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

If you sit in front of a big bright screen in a pitch black room you will get a silhouette.

Yes, but it's not intense enough to project harsh shadows. In the Hawken cockpits, you can see the shadows of buildings, trees, etc stretching into your cockpit exactly the way they would through glass. If the cockpit were merely rounded screens displaying an image of what was outside, you wouldn't get those global-lighting-based directional shadows like that.

Like I said earlier, I don't think there's an explanation other than that the devs haven't finished all the interiors [or perhaps they don't care to.]

I think the OLED can do this

[Ace4225]

research time!

Ok, I've looked into a few articles related to the OLED. It seems it has the abilities to be built into flexible surfaces and to project images with greater contrast than LCD screens, but I still think the Hawken cockpits are glass, because:

1. Regardless of screen material, global shadows are a result of monodirectional [infinite] light.

In 3D rendering, the sun is always an "infinite light" source, meaning that the light travels from an infinitely wide plane in one direction onto all rendered objects. Curved screens that are self-illuminated are not mono-directional in the light they project; the curved surface is actually made from many tiny flat surfaces, usually triangles, and each individual flat face is a light emitter, which means the curved surface emits light in many directions, not just one. It would be impossible to simulate global, mono-directional shadows from curved screens, even if we were just talking about the rendering technology powering the game, let alone a real-life screen technology.

2. I can't imagine why screens would need to simulate global shadows inside the cockpit if they were screens.

Edited by Ace4225, November 17 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[HandSlander]

I don't even know WTF is being discussed here. You just need to see the light in the cockpit, watch the live action trailer, read the digital comic or just simply look at the mechs to realise that the main visuals for the pilot is through the glass.

So now we are back on track to the question - the film grain effect is meant to simulate what exactly_ Is it environmental or is it due to the signal feed for the HUD/helmet_ If I was a real mech pilot and my helmet was causing my feed to look static-ey when I am fighting in life or death situations for $$$ I would make sure as hell that the helmet feed was clean as crystal.

So what gives - nerf the film grain.

[OdinTheWise]

HandSlander, on November 17 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

I don't even know WTF is being discussed here. You just need to see the light in the cockpit, watch the live action trailer, read the digital comic or just simply look at the mechs to realise that the main visuals for the pilot is through the glass.

So now we are back on track to the question - the film grain effect is meant to simulate what exactly_ Is it environmental or is it due to the signal feed for the HUD/helmet_ If I was a real mech pilot and my helmet was causing my feed to look static-ey when I am fighting in life or death situations for $$$ I would make sure as hell that the helmet feed was clean as crystal.

So what gives - nerf the film grain.

It is not film grain it is signal noise, and is something you cannot avoid with photo sensors and I personally think that it is screens and that the lighting is just an oversight, or an attempt to make thing look more interesting

[Ace4225]

@Odin: it's not screens. EVERYTHING in this game's lore/appearance/other content says it's glass cockpits. You can not believe it, but your opinion is not true. end of discussion.

@Hand: as for the grain, I do agree with Odin. I don't think it's "grain," because it only really flares up in low light/when you're taking damage, which suggests that it is a helmet display that's just struggling to keep up with environmental conditions.

As the devs have said, this game is rich in lore, which is currently unclear since much of the story has yet to be released. I'm sure there's a reason for the fuzzy bunnies [yes, I just spelled that out :) ].

[HandSlander]

FFS I just used grain because it matched the OP - obviously thats just the moot description here.

As for this being noise from a photo sensor that is rubbish. What photo sensor__ We've already established we are viewing the game world through a glass cockpit. Secondly, noise is directly corellated to the quality and size of the sensor but more importantly the amount of light entering it - how much noise would you expect in a desert_ Less than being hemmed in amongst skyscrapers in what looks like neo-Tokyo right_ Well its the same no mater what. Thirdly, even if it was due to photo sensor noise the amount of noise it is generating in what is a high light situation (the sunny desert) is worse than my old Sony Ericsson phone recording VGA video.

[Adreni]

Mind if I jump in here by stating that the HUD itself is explicitly designated as helmet-based holography_ Take a look at the default forums avatar, and at your in-game avatar. I think it's in the Siege Mode boot up sequence. The entire Head Up Display (distinct from a heads-up display in that it is meant to keep your eyes front and center) is based on visor holography. So yes, you ARE looking through a sort of screen... a clear one inside your helmet (which does exist today, iirc).

Now... what use would a holovisor serve if you're peering through a camera_ Frankly it would be redundant and wasteful.

Now... as for the nature of the canopy itself, take a very CAREFUL look at the mechs.

[Roundlay]

Not quite sure what Adhesive do and do not allow regarding ini modification, although they seem to have been fairly open to tweaking thus far, so I'll put this here for "educationalpurposesonlyetc".

Image grain can be disabled by commenting out "EngineMaterials.Good64x64TilingNoiseHighFreq" in "HawkenEngine.ini". I.e. ImageGrainNoiseTextureName= /* EngineMaterials.Good64x64TilingNoiseHighFreq */

The image grain effect used throughout Hawken slash the Unreal Engine appears to target areas of low light, which is consistent with the way noise affects contemporary image sensors. I think the use of image grain within the game is cool. Adhesive, if you do anything, add a toggle, and don't remove it all together.

Edited by Roundlay, November 18 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Machineabuse]

I can't be the only one who thinks the game looks hella good without grain

Also be cool guys, it's not super important that the grain is in there or not.

All I'm saying is that since its an aesthetic decision and being that aesthetics are relative it should be up to the choice of the beholder. Those who like it = already happy, those who don't care for it = could be happier still.

Also since it seems to be scaled to detail levels I hate to think that some people would be playing this gorgeous game on lower detail to be more competitive. That would be a shame.

It's the same way you should allow players to turn of DOF. FWIW, I play another popular F2P shooter with DOF turned on because it looks so damned boss. Most others have it turned off for the competitive edge.

Edited by Machineabuse, November 18 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

Roundlay, on November 17 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Not quite sure what Adhesive do and do not allow regarding ini modification, although they seem to have been fairly open to tweaking thus far, so I'll put this here for "educationalpurposesonlyetc".

Image grain can be disabled by commenting out "EngineMaterials.Good64x64TilingNoiseHighFreq" in "HawkenEngine.ini". I.e. ImageGrainNoiseTextureName= /* EngineMaterials.Good64x64TilingNoiseHighFreq */

The image grain effect used throughout Hawken slash the Unreal Engine appears to target areas of low light, which is consistent with the way noise affects contemporary image sensors. I think the use of image grain within the game is cool. Adhesive, if you do anything, add a toggle, and don't remove it all together.

The fact that it is targeted to low light areas also matches my observations as well the mech in the images have no transparent cockpit

[Ace4225]

OdinTheWise, on November 18 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Roundlay, on November 17 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Not quite sure what Adhesive do and do not allow regarding ini modification, although they seem to have been fairly open to tweaking thus far, so I'll put this here for "educationalpurposesonlyetc".

Image grain can be disabled by commenting out "EngineMaterials.Good64x64TilingNoiseHighFreq" in "HawkenEngine.ini". I.e. ImageGrainNoiseTextureName= /* EngineMaterials.Good64x64TilingNoiseHighFreq */

The image grain effect used throughout Hawken slash the Unreal Engine appears to target areas of low light, which is consistent with the way noise affects contemporary image sensors. I think the use of image grain within the game is cool. Adhesive, if you do anything, add a toggle, and don't remove it all together.

The fact that it is targeted to low light areas also matches my observations as well the mech in the images have no transparent cockpit

then what do you call that piece of glass in the middle of those X-shaped armor bits_ [look closely]