24 replies to this topic

[AngryOgre]

It's my opinion that the skill ceiling should be lowered for public servers. Do what you want to the game on private servers. But for public servers the game's skill ceiling needs to be low enough for the people, like myself, who can't hit or get close to that ceiling in the current build.

Why can't I get better to up my game? For a few reasons. 1) I work. A lot. I maybe have 3 hours a night to myself. 2) I have slight tremors in my hands, which makes precise shooting nearly impossible for me. This didn't used to come up much in earlier builds because Hellfires were able to circumvent my issues and bigger splash helped me with missed targets. I'm not sure but I think time between dodges were higher as well in earlier builds.

Dodging A classes were tough for me, but not impossible. But air dodging and high frequency dodging mixed with smaller splash and less smart Hellfires really exasperated my inability to really do much in hawken.

I don't really talk a lot about these issues because they didn't really come up. Ascension really messed up my game. I rarely am able to keep up score wise in anything other than a Tech. Techs have smart aiming so my problems don't really tank my game much like in other mechs.

I don't know how to really make everyone happy in this game, I don't mean offense to the elite players, but I'll never have the time skill and ability to come close to where you guys are. And it makes engaging with this game tough. That's why I think the game's ceiling should be lowered. It's a free to play game which will probably mean more casual players coming in who don't have the time or inherent skill and ability to climb a high skill ceiling.

I think I'm just rambling now...

[Silverfire]

Lowering the ceiling would limit the game competitively. No thank you.

And you can't really lower a skill ceiling for certain servers... The skill ceiling affects the whole game.

What you probably mean is more selective matchmaking, which i would reply yes, sure. Help grow the game and there will be more people like you around your skill level so there would be no need to lower a skill ceiling. By all means play casually, but don't lower it for those who can climb it.

Edited by Silverfire, 01 April 2015 - 07:43 AM.

[dorobo]

Stick with hellfires try all mechs that use them. You can still make hf's work for you.

[CraftyDus]

Wouldn't increasing splash for damage, increasing dodge cooldown, and buffing hellfire lock on make the game more difficult Ogre?

 

I'm sorry you don't have the time available to play as much as you'd like, but  that's the human condition, friend.

 

And as far as tremors in your hands, KUDOS to you for playing through personal adversity!

 

However,

I don't know that adjusting the game to account for this would end there...

Making it a third person shooter would allow a significant portion of gamers to play sans vertigo,

Adding colorblind modes would help a fair number of males who suffer from inability to distinguish video game objects in a time critical way.

Including scantily clad women would help retain the player interest of a significant majority of misogynists who would other wise play, etc.

 

I can guarantee you that making hellfires bend sharper, increasing splash damage, and to a lesser extent dodge nerfing are going to bring out the pitchforks in the community.

 

And buddy,

I don't want to see an AngryOgre get shrekt.

 

 

[AngryOgre]

That's why I was saying private servers should be mechanically tweekable, let that ladder climb as high as you want in the way you want. I've seen it thrown around that people have (are?) used it like that in the past.

If Hawken is currently drinking a red eye, I'd like to see it drinking green tea instead, but not nitequil like MWO. Does that make sense?

[AngryOgre]

Lots of responses yike! Gonna be a bit slow responding back (on my smartphone). Sorry for the delay.

But a quick reply. I was trying to say when those features were around the game was more accessible for me. Now that things have been changed to their current state the game is less accessible for me.

I don't know what or how would fix the game, at least in my opinion, but when the game was in its earlier states, it was easier for me to compete.

[zupsero]

On the one side its only fair to the hawken elite to kick serious butt after investing hundreds of hours and just straight up being a god at this game. And on the other handsight we all understand that it is frustrating to get beat up a lot and possily pushing away new casual gamers. I'm still not used to it (get beaten up)and get very mad when i absolutely get crushed.. but in hawken this happens in most of the games because i just suck.

Like u said, u only have so much time to spend on hawken. you cannot expect, that u are able to play at the same level with your huge hands and tough schedule, no offense bro ;)
Just like i cannot expect to kick ass in cs go beause, you know, i only play it every once in a while. I cant expect to be on the same level as some cs go pro from ninjas in pyjamas just because it is "unfair". CS GO has still tons of casual players.

the point im tryin to make is, the player base in hawken is just too low at the moment. Battles in your specific skillrange would be more fun for you i guess. I completely understand that people dont want the skillcap to be lowered and even tho im like universes away from that cap i dont want it to be lowered neither.

I see it in 2 dimensions, there is a mechanical skill like aim, movement, weapons, etc. and then there is what i would call gamesense. Gamesense includes everything aside from the mechanical standpoint, like gameknowledge, how to move and fight in defferent situations, reading your enemys moves and habbits and a lot of other stuff. So i figured.. if ur time is limited to practice - because thats what it really comes down to- the mechanical skills, be smarter than your enemys, proof a superior gamesense and win by that.

I just felt like writing :3
 

Edited by zupsero, 01 April 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

You need 10000 hours of training to become a master, or so they say.

 

I guess you cant win a race people started years ago. Let's hope they find some kind of endgame before people burn bridges out of boredom again. That's why I havent reinstalled yet. I've got literally nothing to grind anymore, EU servers maxes at 15 persons, Siege is a mess. The only thing there is to do is wait and see.

 

As for hellfires, from the few I played post Steam update, they get a strong lock on if you keep distance and bend them. Even on open field, bend them, the straighter the line the dumber they are. The nerf affected the short range mostly. CQC dont even bother to use the lock-on now.

[Fstroke]

Just to summarize your post in a sentence; Simplify the game because of my personal difficulties in improving, and because of this, all new players must have the same experience.

Doesn't sound right when put like that does it?

Many of us have difficulties and restrictions and many of us are not elite but many of us also want a game that is challenging and rewarding to play. If you think about your post, turning the base game into a simple game will probably mean no more hawken.

Once the population grows you will be able to remain in your comfort zone a little more. For now focus on the ways you can improve rather than your limitations. Hang in there.

[AngryOgre]

No problem, and I hear it all the time, play smarter. I get it. Been trying to apply it since Ascension. Still getting rolled a lot. Still not connecting a lot with direct or splash. Hellfires still flying into stuff. And it gets boring. But my point is it wasn't always boring. There was a time when the mechanics of the game were more lenient, and player skill could be augmented or proped up by those mechanics.

And yeah the player base is still really low and I would love for that to change, because as a casual gamer this has been a pretty punishing game lately lol

And no, no big hands, the tremors are from an injury I had.

[M4st0d0n]

Yeah well... Here's a video to cheer you up.

[zupsero]

And yeah the player base is still really low and I would love for that to change, because as a casual gamer this has been a pretty punishing game lately lol

And no, no big hands, the tremors are from an injury I had.

yeah i feel you buddie.. i myself broke my pc just a couple days ago and im playin on my old rig with 512 mb graphics and stuff. 15 fps at the moment, no wonder i cant hit a thing. but its okay im not complaining.. these guys will see when im rdy to go in 1 or 2 weeks *EVIL LAUGH*

PS: yeah more players is what this game desperately needs. because right now. theres a group who wants to focus on competetive play and balance stuff and then theres the group of people who want to get this thing alive and make it more accessible.. man i dont want to swap with cpnjosh :D

[AngryOgre]

Hey Fstroke,

you kinda got it, but not quite. First off, all of this is coming from a personal place. It's how the game feels for me now, it's what the game used to be like for me in the past, and I see now (thanks everyone) that back tracking may not be the answer, but the way the game plays for me now is really hard, mechaniclly and otherwise.

I'm simply talking about what drives me away, and what kept me here. This whole post was to talk about Hawken from a personal place. It's where I'm coming from when I talk about Hawken.

I really do hope it can grow up into a popular game, it's got a lot to love about it, it's got some stuff to dislike, it's still in beta, which means stuff is gonna change, which means player experience is an important thing to discuss.

And this isn't supposed to be a pity party. It's more like an airing of grievances, and where I liked the game, and hopefully that it can be taken into consideration.

Turning Hawken into a simple game would probably do a lot of harm, as you said. Bringing hawken down a few notches, leveling the field a little more. Might not hurt the game so much. But yeah a simple game doesn't sound fun. I agree with you.

Thanks for the pep talk, ive heard it a lot, at somepoint you do have to take your limits into consideration tho, and thats what im doing here, expressing those limitations and how the changes over the years have exasperated their influence on my playing. #notbeingsarcastic #tryingnottosoundhostile

[Silverfire]

I don't agree there should be mechanics that put lower skilled players on par with higher tier players. It's unfair for those who have worked to get that skilled. When were there more lenient mechanics? Could you cite an example please?

The fix for your problem isn't in game mechanics, it's in drawing in more players so that there will be more players like you - more casuals that don't climb the skill ladder so that the higher tiered players can enjoy a high skill ceiling. Just like LoL and CSGO have a ton of casuals, the ceiling for the game isn't necessarily low nor does it need to be lowered so that casuals can enjoy the game. There's just enough players to separate the high and low skill players in terms of numbers.

Edited by Silverfire, 01 April 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[CaliberMengsk]

No problem, and I hear it all the time, play smarter. I get it. Been trying to apply it since Ascension. Still getting rolled a lot. Still not connecting a lot with direct or splash. Hellfires still flying into stuff. And it gets boring. But my point is it wasn't always boring. There was a time when the mechanics of the game were more lenient, and player skill could be augmented or proped up by those mechanics.

And yeah the player base is still really low and I would love for that to change, because as a casual gamer this has been a pretty punishing game lately lol

And no, no big hands, the tremors are from an injury I had.

Hmmm... to be honest, I highly HIGHLY doubt it's the change in mechanics. That was also when the new match making was implemented rather then just throwing you into a random match (Even though it said it was "finding" a match for you, it was really only looking at player count). Most likely that's the cause of your problems. Before that, it was extremely common for me to get killstreaks near the 30's (I've had over 40 in the killstreaks before, but that was near closed beta time), as soon as the new match making was put in, I'm now lucky to get over a 5 kill streak. It forces you to play against higher level players then just the random people it did before, thus making it harder to destroy people.

[AngryOgre]

Silverfire, it was around CB era. Pre AC. Tows and Hellfires were more forgiving. There was a lot less going on in the air. Dodges were longer but less frequent.

Player base needs to be higher, that's obvious and something that we can agree on, but how can this game retain players who aren't die hard about it. Like its a hand in hand thing. If the game is more accessible, more people hypothetically would take part right? Wouldn't retention follow. It did for me, as accessibility declined in my mech niche (Tows and Hellfires) retention started declining. I played less and less. I'm back at it now, and I'm happy to be here. I hope for a long time. But my skills are capped right now for the reasons stated. We can't do much for player base right now. Mechanics are something that I can talk about in the mean time.

And to everyone who threw some tips at me you weren't ignored ;)

[Superkamikazee]

On the one side its only fair to the hawken elite to kick serious butt after investing hundreds of hours and just straight up being a god at this game. And on the other handsight we all understand that it is frustrating to get beat up a lot and possily pushing away new casual gamers. I'm still not used to it (get beaten up)and get very mad when i absolutely get crushed.. but in hawken this happens in most of the games because i just suck.

Like u said, u only have so much time to spend on hawken. you cannot expect, that u are able to play at the same level with your huge hands and tough schedule, no offense bro ;)
Just like i cannot expect to kick ass in cs go beause, you know, i only play it every once in a while. I cant expect to be on the same level as some cs go pro from ninjas in pyjamas just because it is "unfair". CS GO has still tons of casual players.

the point im tryin to make is, the player base in hawken is just too low at the moment. Battles in your specific skillrange would be more fun for you i guess. I completely understand that people dont want the skillcap to be lowered and even tho im like universes away from that cap i dont want it to be lowered neither.

I see it in 2 dimensions, there is a mechanical skill like aim, movement, weapons, etc. and then there is what i would call gamesense. Gamesense includes everything aside from the mechanical standpoint, like gameknowledge, how to move and fight in defferent situations, reading your enemys moves and habbits and a lot of other stuff. So i figured.. if ur time is limited to practice - because thats what it really comes down to- the mechanical skills, be smarter than your enemys, proof a superior gamesense and win by that.

I just felt like writing :3
 

 

The flip side is that Hawken may be too deep (very high skill ceiling) to attract a wider audience. I get it, the game has to be competitive to keep players engaged long term. But at the same time a games complexity can't be such where it can become a deterrent unless the games complexity is it's sole attraction like say Dark Souls, the punishment is the game and has a cult following. I've said it before, there needs to be a balance, and I'm of the opinion the game is getting so complex it's geared to appease the hardest of hard core arena players and alienating the less hardcore shooter fans. 

 

A few questions I've thrown around,

 

Are arena genre fans looking to play a mech flavored arena shooter?

And, or, are mech genre fans looking to play a heavily arena focused mech shooter?

 

I'm still not convinced arena players will gravitate to Hawken to scratch the arena itch, and less so with Unreal Tournament out and about. I'm also not convinced that mech genre fans stick around long term in Hawken due to how heavily focused it is on being a arena shooter. It's as though it's a game that can't find an audience, or a large enough audience, because both genres are niche atm.

 

Of course this is just my opinion.

[AngryOgre]

And, or, are mech genre fans looking to play a heavily arena focused mech shooter?

This. I'd like the end product to look like that

[LobsterBox]

The skill floor needs to be lowered and the learning curve needs to be smoothed out. The new player experience is always rough with technical arena shooters but Hawken's small population and lack of matchmaking do not help at all.

[M4st0d0n]

Mmmm. Quite the contrary. I'm afraid Hawken is not deep enough. Right now the vocal remain of the community want a game balanced around duels and fightclubs, but the problems will stay.

[AxionOperandi]

What does it matter that the skill ceiling is high?  Does the match making not work for you?

 

My MMR isn't that high and I see lots of maxed out mechs in my matches and quite often able to make significant impact on the matches I play.

 

I do agree that the learning curve should be made easier if possible as getting started can be quite brutal but that only lasts more than a few hours of play in my experience.

[CornR]

Try using a controller, you can tweak it to death and maybe it's easier to move your thumb instead of the whole hand.
Or just try less competitive modes, or even other games more suited to coop rather than pvp competition (I rarely play pvp myself)

[AngryOgre]

Try using a controller, you can tweak it to death and maybe it's easier to move your thumb instead of the whole hand.
Or just try less competitive modes, or even other games more suited to coop rather than pvp competition (I rarely play pvp myself)

Controller has been thrown at me a few times recently, I need to give it a try. With how fast A classes dodge everywhere B and C classes are probably gonna be my bread and butter for points :P

[BluetoothBoy]

I have a feeling that your skill issue will go away almost completely as more and more players pick up the game. The more players there are, the more players there will be with less experience and skill. And that means more servers populated by those players. The high skill ceiling in HAWKEN, as I see it, is due almost completely to the skill of the player. As a result, the few that have stayed and played have gotten very good, and thus the skill ceiling seems overly high. My suggestion? Give it time before we start changing things. We still have no idea what's going to happen yet in terms of the playerbase.

[AngryOgre]

I have a feeling that your skill issue will go away almost completely as more and more players pick up the game. The more players there are, the more players there will be with less experience and skill. And that means more servers populated by those players. The high skill ceiling in HAWKEN, as I see it, is due almost completely to the skill of the player. As a result, the few that have stayed and played have gotten very good, and thus the skill ceiling seems overly high. My suggestion? Give it time before we start changing things. We still have no idea what's going to happen yet in terms of the playerbase.

Except that, unless we get a huge sudden influx of players who stay long enough and are interested in staying, we'll be stuck with the current build of HAWKEN. I've gone over this, if the game's pace is the way that it is now (where everything moves really fast, both combat and movement wise) then how are players going to be retained if its a punishing experience. Like I said it's a hand in hand thing. Tweak the game, see what happens to everyones enjoyment and if we start getting people to stay, if it doesn't stick, revert to the current build. I can appreciate the player base needs to be higher for variety's sake, but as of now that's like saying "making a better tomorrow, tomorrow", it'll never happen :/

Or at least, that's where I'm coming from when I talk about this stuff.