22 replies to this topic

[Pumapaw]

How about a way to look up yourself and others in leader board? A search perimeter perhaps?

[Rainbow_Sheep]

If you have multiple suggestions could you

a) Put them all in one thread instead of like 5 single sentence posts

Put them in the suggestions forum

 

Thanks

[Draigun]

While we're on the subject: why does the leaderboard take drops of MMR - in close relationship to the current season - so seriously? I used to be 2463 on the leaderboard, and after a terrible match, my MMR dropped around 15 points. Instantly downgraded in rank on the leaderboard (that is supposed to be static?).

 

Yet when you push above and beyond your MMR for that season, it almost never places you where you need to be - and if it does, it takes longer for it to update. If you're going to calculate seasonal MMR throughout the season, it shouldn't be biased towards either a positive or negative increase.

 

Now, half of this story could be explained if ScrimBot's way of retrieving MMR through the API is—somewhat or incredibly—different than leaderboard calculations. If correct, that would explain why there are inconsistencies with ScrimBot and the leaderboards values. But it still doesn't explain why loss is emphasized over win here...

Edited by Draigun, 04 June 2017 - 10:41 AM.

[Pumapaw]

If you have multiple suggestions could you

a) Put them all in one thread instead of like 5 single sentence posts

Put them in the suggestions forum

 

Thanks

If you look at the times you will notice they are different.

[Rainbow_Sheep]

If you look at the times you will notice they are different.

 

I know they were at different times. What I said still stands - put them all in one thread.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Speaking of leaderboard... 3800 mmr new high. Hackeroni alive in well in howken.

[Leghorn10314]

As a solid 1400 MMR for 3 years, I found this thread pretty funny; thanks for the chuckles!

[Silverfire]

Also it's search "parameter" not search "perimeter." Had to point it out, sorry.

[ICERAY2000]

Well the MMR system is absolutely useless when it comes to comparing - well, anything - take this player for instance - the last time I looked, I was like in the 1200th or so position on MMR... funny because I was in the top 15 in both total wins, and Heavy kills - how can someone rated so low be doing so well? Because MMR doesn't compare anything properly, in my opinion. There's gotta be a better way! GL.

[6ixxer]

If you have multiple suggestions could you

a) Put them all in one thread instead of like 5 single sentence posts

 

 

If you look at the times you will notice they are different.

 

 

I know they were at different times. What I said still stands - put them all in one thread.

 

I have to disagree.

After years of working on a service desk there is one thing that keeps showing its purpose.

 

>One job one ticket<

 

If you have a heap of disjointed work in one thread, it becomes a mess and cannot be closed off neatly, because of some straggling task that may never be completed.

 

Make a single suggestion as a single thread. People comment on that one suggestion. Devs action (haha lol) that one suggestion. Thread closes.

(unless someone derails it by talking about hacking out of nowhere...)

[6ixxer]

now on the topic of hacking..... I think G2s are OP and should be deleted....

[6ixxer]

Well the MMR system is absolutely useless when it comes to comparing - well, anything - take this player for instance - the last time I looked, I was like in the 1200th or so position on MMR... funny because I was in the top 15 in both total wins, and Heavy kills - how can someone rated so low be doing so well? Because MMR doesn't compare anything properly, in my opinion. There's gotta be a better way! GL.

 

Winning by being carried does not necessarily mean you get a good MMR.

Getting lots of kills by stealing the last 20hp does not necessarily mean you get a good MMR.

Having a high KDR does not necessarily mean you get a good MMR.

You seem to be pointing out team performance as an indicator of individual performance.

 

MMR is based on damage output per time unit. Someone has to put the hurt on the other team. That means big damage, leading to their death.

 

You can yolo in and do mass damage and then die without killing anyone, but so long as that teammate behind you finishes the final 20hp off those weakened targets, the yolo-diver gets the points.

 

Besides, we all know MMR only compares e-wang... You're only mentioning it cos yours isn't as e-big as others.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[Gueber]

The problem is before you started with 1250 MMR and now you start with basicly nothing, they cut the scale in half but let legacy accounts kept the old MMRs and just mixed them in with the new. Under the current system with a new account you need to play 50+ games before you even reach the old starting MMR. Meaning even if you were the best player in the world you will still be rated below literally anyone with a legacy account even if they were bottom tier because they kept their old MMR while you started under the new lower scale. I'm guessing there was a reason the old starting MMR was 1250, and that's because it was close to the average and would therefor require less data/games to adjust the average players MMR closer to their actual skill level. By changing the starting MMR to nothing it makes smurfing even worse because an above average player has to work their way up just to reach the average!

 

If for example the old high was 10/10 and the new one was 5/5 then a player that was 10/10 should now be 5/5, however they are now 10/5, impossible to reach numbers, because the scale dropped but they weren't scaled down, completely breaking the scale and balance. Now the leaderboard is camped by hundreds of legacy accounts that don't even actively play the game that have 2k+ MMR, dropping 150 MMR per season to reduce "inflation" isn't going to cut it to fix this when seasons are 2-3 months long it will take years to achieve balance. Meanwhile active legacy accounts that do actually play are dropping MMR and losing their ranking even if they are playing well and deserve to stay in the top. It feels like you get punished for playing the game.

 

If you are playing a legacy account with inflated legacy MMR you are going to have a bad time. The balance is always going to favor new accounts that are scaled to the new starting MMR, because they will never be placed against all the high MMR players being on the other team even if they are the best player in the server.

 

TLDR: Old starting MMR + Inflation = Huge MMR gap between legacy and new accounts of the same skill level. You can't even balance if you have no respect for numbers. Whoever had the idea to change the scale and keep the old numbers had a huge math fail and should go back to school.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Mmr is scaled by how far above the server median score/min you scored, scaled by how fat over/under the mean mmr in the server your starting mmr was. But only if you were in the game over two min.

No clue how current leaderboard ribbon score works, at a guess I'd say legacy players started 150 or so below their older score and newer players start at 1000?

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Geub, looks like it's intended to keep new players away from old ones.

[Gueber]

Geub, looks like it's intended to keep new players away from old ones.

Dividing the players into old/new when your population is already to low isn't a solution to anything so I doubt that would be intentional. We share the same servers, the same leaderboards, the same game, so that's impossible anyways. Dividing skill levels to protect new/low tier players made sense but that is completely dysfunctional right now. I'd love to hear their thought process leading to the current mess we are in and why they thought this would be better cause it's a mystery nobody has been able to solve.

[Draigun]

All I know is no matter how good I play in a match, my "seasonal" MMR from the leaderboard data always decreases when (if) it updates itself. Makes no sense if it's seasonal - less so if a negative value is favored over a positive value. This currently contradicts the previous system so much, I question if it's using any MMR data at all...

 

If this consistent decrease is due to the fact that the current MMR scaling was modified, then what's the point for the devs to retain our "legacy MMR values"? Are they just hoping it will 'stabilize' eventually within the playerbase? Or, were they hoping that legacy accounts would be separated (as Luna implied) from newer accounts?

 

Fwiw, I think Gueber's claims have some merit; a smurf of his was scaling in MMR very differently than what I've (and others) observed with legacy accounts. Just so you know, it rendered the matchmaker useless for the total duration. Essentially, what once was an issue for newer players is also an issue for veteran and seasoned players - a seemingly innocent Bronze/Silver ranked pilot destroying match balance.

 

If what we are seeing here, in this thread, is true - then Reloaded/devs will have to disallow new accounts from the "same" person being created...

Edited by Draigun, 14 June 2017 - 01:16 AM.

[Gueber]

All I know is no matter how good I play in a match, my "seasonal" MMR from the leaderboard data always decreases when (if) it updates itself. Makes no sense if it's seasonal - less so if a negative value is favored over a positive value. This currently contradicts the previous system so much, I question if it's using any MMR data at all...

 

If this consistent decrease is due to the fact that the current MMR scaling was modified, then what's the point for the devs to retain our "legacy MMR values"? Are they just hoping it will 'stabilize' eventually within the playerbase? Or, were they hoping that legacy accounts would be separated (as Luna implied) from newer accounts?

 

Fwiw, I think Gueber's claims have some merit; a smurf of his was scaling in MMR very differently than what I've (and others) observed with legacy accounts. Just so you know, it rendered the matchmaker useless for the total duration. Essentially, what once was an issue for newer players is also an issue for veteran and seasoned players - a seemingly innocent Bronze/Silver ranked pilot destroying match balance.

 

If what we are seeing here, in this thread, is true - then Reloaded/devs will have to disallow new accounts from the "same" person being created...

 

Yep and it doesn't matter if there was a smurf or not, there are plenty of people out their that have never even played Hawken before that can play at a high skill level even if it's their first time. They aren't going to have an old legacy account with an inflated MMR, they would have to make a new account. Just cause an account is new doesn't mean a player can't be at a legitimately high skill level. They would upset the balanced and get crucified by the community as a "smurf" and it wouldn't really be their fault. Meanwhile an actual smurf that is of average skill level wont even be noticed and may be mistaken for a new player. So lets forget about "smurfs" for a moment. They are nothing more then an artifact from a system that is simply unable to recognize or compensate for high skill levels. Even if they drop all the old MMRs that would only partially fix the problem. The fact is the system is still way to slow to gauge a players skill level and place them into the appropriate tier. I'm not expecting it to be instantly accurate to 0.0001 of a point but it should only take a few games (Less then 10 really) to place someone within 100 points of were they should be. If I'm at a 90%+ win rate after 50+ games then it's not even paying attention to stats that should be an obvious red flag, this player is stomping the hell out of everything and needs to be moved to a higher tier. While that problem is self evident on its own mixing in with old/inflated MMRs is magnifying it even further.

[StubbornPuppet]

Okay, while we're talking about the new MMR system...

 

What I'm reading is that there was a reorganzing of the MMR score scale?  Right?

That would explain why my MMR was previously 400 points higher than it is now - like, I know I suck, but I didn't think I was getting worse.

 

Also, something must be completely wrong with the dumb "Star-based match quality" system.  Since the update I have never seen anything but 3-star and 0-star matches in the server browser.  There is simply no way that every player is either a really low or really high MMR... and that I fall into the "really high" category.

 

There should be plenty of 1 and 2 star matches happening out there... and there aren't.

 

I'll forego my usual rant about how incredibly dumb and unintuitive the star system is...

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 14 June 2017 - 06:40 AM.

[6ixxer]

Dividing the players into old/new when your population is already to low isn't a solution to anything so I doubt that would be intentional.

Its a solution to keeping players that would otherwise get rekt for their first 3 days and leave?

Not saying its working or not. But you said not a solution to *anything* and doubt it being intentional.

New players means new money, so i can see some possible intention behind easing in new players above pandering to salty vets. I think its also why there are always lots of low pop bots tdms and fewer human tdms.

[TangledMantis]

If we submit a proper post/thread about a problem, will it get answered? Or is that just a better way of tracking all the things that arent getting fixed anyway? - Maybe I should submit a proper ticket for that question so it goes unanswered through the right channels? 

 

Devs are 'busy' so they cant answer every concern.. yet have plenty of free time to cruise around the forums and talk about unrelated things.

Edited by TangledMantis, 14 June 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Gueber]

Its a solution to keeping players that would otherwise get rekt for their first 3 days and leave?

Not saying its working or not. But you said not a solution to *anything* and doubt it being intentional.

New players means new money, so i can see some possible intention behind easing in new players above pandering to salty vets. I think its also why there are always lots of low pop bots tdms and fewer human tdms.

 

Could have worded that better, I meant it was already divided once before by low/high mmr, diving a 2nd time by intentionally separating legacy/new accounts by creating an artificial gap means it would be divided a 2nd time, when you already didn't have enough after the first division. If you can't even fill 1 server nobody is going to stay. So now you have more or less 4 groups of players with mismatched skill levels leaving it up to pure random luck would yield more balanced games at this point.

[ArchMech]

I know they were at different times. What I said still stands - put them all in one thread.

no