46 replies to this topic

[Kyrzon]

At present, you are able to purchase mechs from the marketplace in a pre-constructed fashion, changing certain qualities of that mech (Internals / Items) as you see fit, as well as some pre-cons featuring an alternative weapon set at level 20.

My suggestion is this; keep the current pre-con and also create the ability for players to buy a frame (A, B, C), and then individual parts (Weapons, Internals, Items, Ability, Cosmetics) for the mech at a higher cost than pre-cons with a limited resource table; each part as defined above would have a cost associated with it (cosmetics notwithstanding), and each frame is only capable of holding a particular total of cost during construction.

This would give players greater freedom over customization while still being able to keep control over potential balance issues.

Want specific weapon combinations that might be deemed overpowered otherwise on a frame_ You can have it, but you may not have enough cost available afterwards to keep internals or items on your mech.

Want the damage reduction ability on an A class mech_ Same tone, except maybe certain weapons are restricted.

Another end to this suggestion is that it gives you, the developers, the ability to release parts that might at first only be available to custom built mechs, and then released in a pre-con manner later.

Pros: Gives players greater depth and freedom with constructing a mech throughout their career as a hawken pilot.
Cons: Requires more balance and testing because of the extra attention that would need to be paid to weapon popularity and viability on different frames.

Another potential worry is that with the implimentation of a cost system, folks might be concerned that they wouldn't be able to have whatever item or internal loadout they please. For pre-cons, this would stay the same; whichever internal/item combo for designated slots you would like. For customs, this would realistically be in jeopardy if the cost of the mech built is too high.

Please let me know what you think, and provide suggestions to improve upon this concept as its one that I think could be very successful based on the nature of the game.

Edited by Kyrzon, November 26 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[ArnieF4440]

O.o, would love to customize my own mech! +1!

[Necro]

This seems like way too much of an overhaul on core game mechanics to be changing at such a late state.

Not that it's a bad idea just a big one.

[Kyrzon]

Necro, on November 26 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

This seems like way too much of an overhaul on core game mechanics to be changing at such a late state.

Not that it's a bad idea just a big one.

Thank you for your input Necro. The idea isn't to overhaul the current mechanics, but add it to the current mechanics. The current pre-con state wouldn't change in the slightest. It would be in addition to.

[Necro]

Ahh, I skipped over that part in my reading sorry.

It is a pretty big addition to the game yet still. The balancing implications are still there just lessened by the restrictions it may place.

Some things to think about would be would this system allow for the same weapon for both primary and secondary_
Would it allow for a mech to have close range AND long range weapons at the same time_
There are a lot of things little things to test like something having camo and a flak use might be too powerful.

If the Devs are up to a big task for open beta to test (not sure what they have in store) this would be something the new influx of players may be drawn to as well as the veterans to enjoy,

[BeefC4ke]

I'll go ahead and second this.

I really like the idea even though I see how it will probably be hard for Meteor to manage and balance all of the different possibilities.

I nice example of how this can be used is for my "dream" mech. I would choose the following:

Class: A

Primary: Slug
Alt. Primary: Empty
Secondary: Sabot

Special: Weapons Coolant

Offensive Item: Empty
Support Item: EMP

Offensive Internal: Empty
Defensive Internal: Empty
Functional Internal: Empty

That is what I'm willing to sacrifice to have that combination and it wouldn't be OP. With the points system that Kyrzon suggested I might not even have to go without so much. Maybe getting the Sabot on an A class costs more than some other guns so I can't afford to put 1-2 internals on or something.

The following mech is just an example as it's something that really fits how I like to play. With a system to customize mechs people could choose what they wanted. There could still be restrictions though and I would recommend that there are some. For Example, some combinations that were deemed too powerful could be restricted like Heat/TOW or if they are allowed, have the point totals on them be so high that those are pretty much all the mech is rolling with.

Also, there is a potential to add points by sacrificing some things. I would be willing to add weapon heat for a few extra points to maybe fit an extra item on my above dream mech. The same could be done with armor or mobility.

[Kyrzon]

Something I never really touched on in this suggestion is the actual cost of the custom mechs.

At present, a pre-con is 9200HP or 1030MP. An identically built custom could cost as much as 32750HP and 1110MP, or 4785MP, depending on the parts used. Here's the break down of theoretical maximum part costs with my current design:

• 7000HP/784MP for the Frame, which will determine the mech's type, A, B, or C.
  
• 3500HP/392MP for each Primary/Alternate weapon. For clarity, these are weapons like the Assault, HEAT, Flak, etc.
  
• 5000HP/560MP for the Secondary weapon. For clarity, these are weapons like TOW, Sabot, Hellfire, etc.
  
• 6000HP/672MP for the Ability.
  
• 1550HP/175MP for each Item and Internal. Custom mechs that would like to run without a secondary weapon would gain a bonus item slot.
  
• 220MP for each individual Chassis (Upper/Lower) and Legs pieces.
  
• 190MP for a Repair drone of your choice.
  
• 260MP for Thrusters & nozzles of your choice.

Again, these are all MAXIMUM parts costs. Lower cost weapons/frames/abilities would cost lower HP/MP values. Anything in this list (except cosmetic Chassis/Leg pieces) can be left off to reduce costs to the frame; this includes Repair drones and Thrusters.

Edited by Kyrzon, November 27 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[Avlaen]

While im all for more customisation, i just feel this would become op compared to the classes, eg having weapon/ability combos that arent meant to be together. Now yes all people technicly have access to this but if its that much mroe expensive than buying a class i would say it borders on "pay 2 win" at 32k hawken points that would take a very long time to earn through normal play (nearly un reasonable imo) it would either need to be much closer to the class prices. (maybe double after alls bought so theres still a point to classes) Or replace the classes and change the classes to. "recommended builds" or something.

[Kyrzon]

You should re-read the original post as I think you might have missed a few points in it. There are restrictions to this set up, as well as the pre-con mechs don't have those restrictions for item and internal make-ups, which gives them a separate point.

[Avlaen]

There are restrictions, but at the moment not having internals(for example) isnt a big loss as there rather small or have negative effects them selves, as i said i like the idea but im just worried it would be abused or be OP.

[JonnyO2]

I agree with Avlaen - I like the idea, but my guess is that these closed betas were to iron out balance before going open beta and that the chance of some combination becoming the "killer combo" (a fleet of battlecruisers in Starcraft comes to mind) might be too great (implementation effort aside.)

[Kyrzon]

Internals provide some of the biggest boosts in the game; 15 hp/s on an internal, 9 hp/s available through mastery. 30m radar range on an internal, 24m radar range split up into two separate trees. You'll find that all of the internal values also have similar differences to their mastery counterparts.

Run without internals as a level 0 versus higher level mechs, or even at max level with your mech and you'll notice that it does make a difference.

I'm not trying to say that your worry is not misplaced; I've been talking about this with a small group of folks and they've expressed similar sentiment, but without seeing what each value parts are rated at, it would be difficult to theorize what would be over powered on what mechs. Also, if you have ideas on what would be a better way to increase mech customization from where it stands now (which I and others I've discussed with feel that it's inadequate), please speak up. I LOVE this game and want to see it succeed in every way possible.

[Grafix]

This suggestion has both merrits and cons.  This system has been implimented in multiple Mech games such as Mech Warrior Living Ledgends and I believe they are doing a small twist to the same process in Mech Warrior Online also but both of those games require high end computer systems because they are using the Crysis Game engine on the back end.

The Back-end of Hawken is the Unreal Game engine and it does require a lot of codeing to do some simple movement.  Reason I know this is because I have helped out in creating other Mecha games using different engines.  My group was going to do a Mech Warrior/BattleTech Game using the Unreal Game engine but Piranah Games already started on MWO which we were hopeing they used the Unreal Game engine but they chose the Crysis engine instead.

[Immie]

I absolutely agree that something must be done to increase customization options, and don't at all mind this particular suggestion. It should never be too late to improve the game.

[Kyrzon]

Thank you for your support Immie.

@Grafix - I would hope that the difficulty of coding something wouldn't influence what length a developer is willing to go to improve and satisfy fans of their game.

[DarkPulse]

More customization would be nice, but it might be a bit much to make it "immediate." Maybe make it only after you've mastered a few mechs_

[TheBennett]

Two things I wanted to point out:


"Adding" to the core mechanics without making changes to what is already there tends to mean the added mechanicsare so trivial in their effect on the gameplay that they don't mess up what is already there.

It's my opinion that is worse than not having it at all.  I'd prefer to have well balanced classes rather than optional but pointless customization.


The other thing is, and this isn't really a countering point, just a thought:  balance as much as you want - there are still practical limits on what are useful.

For example, in Borderlands 2 the Torgue weapons all have explosive damage, which does good damage all around to everything and are generally better in damage than other guns of equal type and level.  So how are they balanced_  Slow bullets.  slooooooow bullets. SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW BUll.. you get the idea.  I pretty much instantly pass over any torgue weaponry because it makes them so much more difficult to actually hit things.

Another Borderlands example, the Jacobs shotguns and rifles.  The shotguns are usually pretty accurate and heavy hitting and OOOH "Fires as fast as you can pull the trigger"!!! OH but the shotgun can only be fired once before reloading....  The assualt rifles are all quite accuratem very high damage for their level and also fast firing... but they're all ONLY semi-auto and have a TON of recoil.  So unless you have the clicking muscles of a MOBA pro player and don't mind missing 2 of ever 3 shots....

The point is players will always gravitate towards the optimal solution, which can be utterly game breaking. Just because the numbers add up armor of the mech vs speed vs armament, doesn't mean that some combinations won't be found to be flat-out superior.

  At this point there is no way to add fully customizable mechs like a lot of people have been asking for without risking MAJOR unbalancing.  I totally WANT fully customizable chasseys with a complex system of weight/distribution/heart dispersal limits and there's always time for an expansion or a sequel after Hawken is released.

TL;DR:  It would a lot more effort than you think and could be disaterous, but I TOTALLY AGREE IT WOULD BE AWESOME.

[Kyrzon]

TheBennett, on November 29 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

TL;DR:  It would a lot more effort than you think and could be disaterous, but I TOTALLY AGREE IT WOULD BE AWESOME.

I didn't get the 'I TOTALLY AGREE IT WOULD BE AWESOME' part in that wall of text at all. At anyrate, thank you for your feedback. I only hope that the devs have seen, or will see this thread at some point.

[Hugs_]

Personally, I love these threads. I learn so much from them! Your passion and insight is pretty incredible.

For many reasons, I often can't really offer my opinion on this or any additional information on customization, but I can assure you that we do read these threads. They are often the tinder that sparks fruitful explosions of internal discussion! Like a Starburst fruit chew in our brains.

There are many things that will gradually be coming online during Open Beta. Open Beta is still a beta! We're always listening to your feedback and will continue to need to hear it-- thank you!

[Kyrzon]

Hugs, on November 29 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Personally, I love these threads. I learn so much from them! Your passion and insight is pretty incredible.

For many reasons, I often can't really offer my opinion on this or any additional information on customization, but I can assure you that we do read these threads. They are often the tinder that sparks fruitful explosions of internal discussion! Like a Starburst fruit chew in our brains.

There are many things that will gradually be coming online during Open Beta. Open Beta is still a beta! We're always listening to your feedback and will continue to need to hear it-- thank you!

Absolutely all of my feels.