87 replies to this topic

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

modding and .ini tweaks have been around forever

Ignoring my point entirely. I still don't think it should be allowed, and for most games, texture LOD is tied in to the level it's set in the menus. Therefore, it should not be something you can lower past whatever the lowest the menus will allow.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Except it's not "any means necessary"
It's a series of settings everyone has access to, and the information is readily available for anyone who doesn't know how to .ini tweak

Also ignoring my point. Doesn't solve the fact that someone who does it has an advantage over anyone who doesn't. Therefore, the only way to be "even" is to also do it, which is never a good justification. I feel similarly in games where brightskins are optional and not mandatory.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

I'm running a GTX560, a Quad Core CPU (Intel, not AMD) and 6 or so gigs of ram and Titan drops to 20 FPS for me during fights. It is the only UE3/3.5 game that does so. Firefall's open world and PvP modes run at 60 frames on medium settings, and I've been running games like The Witcher 2 on max since I still had a 9800 GT (which could run this game without stuttering in Alpha)
I have had to reinstall several times since Alpha, and the framerate issues persist. I'm nowhere near the only person who runs into this

Disable PhysX. It murders even my system on Titan and Andromeda; Titan will drop to 30-25, Andromeda I've seen go to like 15, and I'm on a i7-2600K and a GTX 690 - this should never happen. Disabling PhysX, everything goes 60 and pretty much almost always stays 60; the worst I've seen it go is 45 FPS (ironically, that's with the post-game awards, most likely due to all the smoke causing overdraw, etc.)

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

What's more, this is a game where it HIGHLIGHTS the mechs anyway
If anyone on your team spots them, or drops radar down, BAM they're spotted
You'd have to have the situational awareness of a drowned worm to not figure out where they are

They are, yes, but it's a lot easier to spot them if you don't have to actually look due to washed-out textures. Furthermore, spotting doesn't exactly stick around forever.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Picking out neon green against flat grey and picking out neon green against slightly textured grey are hardly two massively different skill requirements. The difference is trivial

Apparently it's not, or people would've never cranked down the LOD in the first place, now would they_

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Except it's not for you to decide where the lowest is/should be. You're projecting your subjective view of graphics settings onto the rest of the playerbase, including people who couldn't feasibly run the game without said tweaks

No, it's for the devs to decide. Their current minimum spec for videocards is a 9800, so the low settings should be tuned for fairly reliable 30 FPS play on a 9800. This is roughly a four or five year old videocard.

Therefore, anyone who is struggling is either trying to do more than their card can handle, or is using extremely outdated hardware - and in that case, yes they should upgrade. Low is low; there should be no "lower" unless the devs are willing to allow (and thus support) that configuration.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Considering the fact that there's been absolutely no reason to upgrade for the past 6 years or so, and considering the fact that Hawken is intented to be a F2P FPS, wouldn't you think it would be good to make it at least as available as say... something poorly optimized like Global Agenda (which I can run at 60 FPS despite the fact that every UI section takes away something absurd like 10 FPS)_

Sure, but there is limits to how much the devs are going to be willing or able to support. As per those specs, basically they're targeting gaming rigs made in the last five years or so. Therefore, the devs are to expect at a minimum certain levels of tech (No P4s for example except for the dual cores, and GPUs capable of DX10/Pixel Shader 4.0) and so the game should accordingly have its very lowest settings centered around these cards.

There is no realistic reason I can think of where a texture would need to go below 512. Even the minimum spec videocards should be able to push that with relative ease.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

You don't already detect enemies like that_
Y'know, Warsow/Xonotic/Quake/UT's bright models and/or Hawken's giant red enemy-mech-boxes

UT didn't force glowstick brightskins until UT3. Quake, I already told you I mostly don't play that. Never played Warsow. Hawken, the boxes don't show up unless they're like right next to you, spotted by someone, or until you shoot them.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 01 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

Ignoring my point entirely. I still don't think it should be allowed, and for most games, texture LOD is tied in to the level it's set in the menus. Therefore, it should not be something you can lower past whatever the lowest the menus will allow.

Except you haven't proven that it makes a big enough difference to worry about
Aside from maybe making the artists cry

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Also ignoring my point. Doesn't solve the fact that someone who does it has an advantage over anyone who doesn't. Therefore, the only way to be "even" is to also do it, which is never a good justification. I feel similarly in games where brightskins are optional and not mandatory.

But then the only way to be even is to crusade against mouse macros, FOV's above 70 and force everyone to have motion blur and film grain on
Heck, motion blur makes a much larger difference than muddying up textures and you haven't complained about that

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Disable PhysX. It murders even my system on Titan and Andromeda; Titan will drop to 30-25, Andromeda I've seen go to like 15, and I'm on a i7-2600K and a GTX 690 - this should never happen. Disabling PhysX, everything goes 60 and pretty much almost always stays 60; the worst I've seen it go is 45 FPS (ironically, that's with the post-game awards, most likely due to all the smoke causing overdraw, etc.)

First thing I do in ANY MP title is disable all of the unneeded effects. Film Grain, Motion Blur, PhysX and the like were off as soon as possible

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

They are, yes, but it's a lot easier to spot them if you don't have to actually look due to washed-out textures. Furthermore, spotting doesn't exactly stick around forever.

It's actually less of a difference than motion blur and film grain would make

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Apparently it's not, or people would've never cranked down the LOD in the first place, now would they_

Actually I generally do it anyway. The fewer instances in which my FPS drops below 60, the better
I also kinda like visual simplicity

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

No, it's for the devs to decide. Their current minimum spec for videocards is a 9800, so the low settings should be tuned for fairly reliable 30 FPS play on a 9800. This is roughly a four or five year old videocard.

I HAD a 9800 until CB1, my UPGRADED card didn't give me 30+ FPS on Titan til I installed the Beta NVidia drivers

DarkPulse, on December 01 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Therefore, anyone who is struggling is either trying to do more than their card can handle, or is using extremely outdated hardware - and in that case, yes they should upgrade. Low is low; there should be no "lower" unless the devs are willing to allow (and thus support) that configuration.

Or the "subject to change" recommended settings aren't what you think they are, at least not if you want to actually play ALL of the maps

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Except you haven't proven that it makes a big enough difference to worry about
Aside from maybe making the artists cry

Once again, still ignoring my point.

Lowest should be the lowest possible. Period. There should be no lower setting through INI editing.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

But then the only way to be even is to crusade against mouse macros, FOV's above 70 and force everyone to have motion blur and film grain on
Heck, motion blur makes a much larger difference than muddying up textures and you haven't complained about that

If it were up to me, yes, these should be forced too (especially since, ironically, motion blurring exploits a quirk of human vision that makes movement easier to detect in peripheral vision, not harder) on the highest detail settings. Much as I feel low should be lowest possible, I feel high should be highest possible.

Obviously, not everything is perfect in that sense; I have to have PhysX off or my framerate plummets, but I believe that to be lack of optimization in this game on PhysX as I have it on in other games with no real framerate issues. Thus, it should only be mandatory at the highest setting, optional in others. Something like PhysX is trickier due to its proprietary nature, of course (turning it on with AMD cards is a bad idea for example), so something like that will no doubt be optional always until CPUs become powerful enough to do similar effects entirely in software.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

First thing I do in ANY MP title is disable all of the unneeded effects. Film Grain, Motion Blur, PhysX and the like were off as soon as possible

Nope, they're on for me, even film grain, except for PhysX as noted above, and that will go on as soon as it works properly. I still tear the place up.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

It's actually less of a difference than motion blur and film grain would make

Disagree entirely. What are people going to do when devs make these sorts of things mandatory_ They'll adapt or not play it.

Let's face it, even though games look better and better every year, we're still pushing them to look more real. It's going to include things like motion blur, because real human vision has motion blur. Things like film grain are way more arguable.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Actually I generally do it anyway. The fewer instances in which my FPS drops below 60, the better
I also kinda like visual simplicity

We both know that for a PC game, "Recommended" is the real minimum. Minimum in PC gaming terms means it'll run. Recommended is the minimum where it will run well.

I feel if you can't get 60 FPS at a game's absolute minimum settings, you need more upgrades.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I HAD a 9800 until CB1, my UPGRADED card didn't give me 30+ FPS on Titan til I installed the Beta NVidia drivers

Probably because Hawken isn't exactly released yet, but there should be no reason you can't keep 30 FPS on a 560.

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Or the "subject to change" recommended settings aren't what you think they are, at least not if you want to actually play ALL of the maps

Subject to change is subject to change, but the devs have a right to set what hardware is and is not supported. If a player has a recent videocard, there should be little to no reason they have to go lower than low in-game settings. If they're struggling even on low, they need better hardware.

Furthermore, we both know that the four maps we're playing over and over are not going to be the only maps.

[ReachH]

Beemann, on December 01 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Sometimes... I just feel like dancing.

[ReachH]

DarkPulse, on December 02 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

I too, feel the urge to dance.

[Beemann]

So wait... graphics settings should be forced until the point where they negatively affect your ability to run the game (PhysX)
In addition, your graphics options should be lessened because you want high detail textures_
This is getting as arbitrary as ever

The prevalence of .ini tweaking in the comp scene didn't cause everyone to play with it. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most people didn't bother, or even cranked settings up to medium or even high

Again though, if the devs found the probably-a-minority that DID .ini edit a problem, it wouldn't have happened in the Quake or UT franchises at all
Nor would games like Xonotic (Haven't played its commercial counterpart Nexiuz) Warsow etc.
Global Agenda included them, which was fantastic because the game was just so poorly optimized (and to be honest I just used those options to change the login screen to the one present at launch because I liked it, and the song it played, much better than the post Sandstorm update login)

Also I love how you go on to say that if someone has recent hardware that should be able to run the game, and the game drops below 30 FPS, that their should upgrade their game, rather than saying that maybe the game needs to be optimized, or the maps need less in the way of visual clutter, or lower settings need to be enabled
Because if I can't run Titan with my rig and not drop to 20 FPS in a fight, and EVERY OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET offers a superior experience in terms of game stability, it must be my computer

[Deu]

Came across that one night. The blood rushed to my epeen.

Edited by Deu, December 02 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Foureyes]

It happened to me yesterday. That shocked me because I'm really nothing special (anyone who played against me can attest). But that one TDM had a couple of newbies or something and I didn't find much opposition. Then that guy goes "wow we have a 6-0 cheater" and I think 'what_ who_'. I open the scoreboard and I realize that it's me. ' I don't say anything and just proceed to play the game like I always do. I finish the game with 17-4-11 and get accused of cheating a bit more. "You haven't played against any serious scouts/zerker yet haven't you_" was my response before I left the game. Whoever that guy was, I don't think he's gonna last very long ­>.>