58 replies to this topic

[wat]

Hello folks, woo first forum post!  Been playing since CB1.

I agree that turret mode is generally weak, BUT, i will say that on Grenadier it has its applications. If you have good positioning / distance / altitude from enemies, you can use Grenadier's turret mode special ability "extra damage" in a strictly high-damage high-aoe spammy way before disengaging turret mode and going into a normal fight.  And if you're really smart, you can use it in the middle of 1 on 1 battles, taking cover, going into turret mode, unleashing a burst of high damage, then exiting turret mode immediately and taking a new position.  It can really confuse whoever you're fighting, sinec turret mode is almost always used in a strictly "on or off" way; you don't usually expect to encounter a C class that activates it briefly and situationally.  

For the other C classes, the specials are higher mobility than a normal turret and higher defense, and frankly those are fairly useless.  However, for Grenadier, higher damage as a tradeoff for mobility, when used smartly (ie, the rare, brief instances when it's not important for you to move much yet you still have a shot at the enemy), actaully has been really damn good for me.

Oh yeah, bronzer on my grenadier = giant brass ball of AOE spam.  woot

We really do need a full on "artillery" mode for C class - a straight up giant ass cannon that can ONLY be used when in turret mode.  Immobility for massive burst damage; lots of things can be done to mitigate it being, say, the highest damage weapon in the game - turret mode can take a really long time to engage/disengage, your radar position can be given away immediately, or maybe the mechanism for aiming the heavy artillery can be something very challenging.

On the other hand, I really hate the fuzzy bunny out of mortars in Battlefield 3 - maybe artillery is a bad idea.  I don't know.

Anyway, C class - hard to use but still capable in the right hands.

[QuanZen]

Necro, on November 29 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

16 hours for just this phase and I've never seen a C class mech get top.

Never.

There is always a scout/infiltrator/assault/bruiser there.

I've seen JustJake get the top in his C-class many times. And I haven't seen Anoka around since Alpha2 but he was also a very good C-class pilot.

[DarkPulse]

defekt, on December 01 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Good for you.  Having my screen constantly blacked out with missile spam is really beginning to choke my goat; in addition, it clobbers my frame rate.  The sooner that weapon [Seeker] is gone (in its current form) the better IMO.  I don't mind that the Rocketeer is to be the 'W+LMB / no-aim-required' machine in Hawken, every game needs its n00btube, but I do mind when its attacks ruin the target's system performance thus further enhancing the effect of an already too powerful / too easy weapon set.

While the devs can optimize, they can only do so much. You can upgrade your system too, yeah_

[defekt]

DarkPulse, on December 02 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

defekt, on December 01 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Good for you.  Having my screen constantly blacked out with missile spam is really beginning to choke my goat; in addition, it clobbers my frame rate.  The sooner that weapon [Seeker] is gone (in its current form) the better IMO.  I don't mind that the Rocketeer is to be the 'W+LMB / no-aim-required' machine in Hawken, every game needs its n00btube, but I do mind when its attacks ruin the target's system performance thus further enhancing the effect of an already too powerful / too easy weapon set.

While the devs can optimize, they can only do so much. You can upgrade your system too, yeah_

Not sure if trolling.

If other weapons adopted this frame-clobbering characteristic I'd be inclined to agree with you, but they don't.  The Seeker is an abortion of a weapon in its current form and I fully expect it to be pulled back for the Open Beta.  System performance is already an unavoidable and accepted advantage in many ways but things like clearly visible Cloaked Infils on High detail settings and badly designed weapons that further exploit the performance advantage, particularly badly designed weapons that also harm the game in other areas, are not things that Hawken should be allowing in through the door.

[DarkPulse]

defekt, on December 02 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Not sure if trolling.

If other weapons adopted this frame-clobbering characteristic I'd be inclined to agree with you, but they don't.  The Seeker is an abortion of a weapon in its current form and I fully expect it to be pulled back for the Open Beta.  System performance is already an unavoidable and accepted advantage in many ways but things like clearly visible Cloaked Infils on High detail settings and badly designed weapons that further exploit the performance advantage, particularly badly designed weapons that also harm the game in other areas, are not things that Hawken should be allowing in through the door.

Nope, being blunt. So many seekers should not strangle a system unless it's on the weaker end of specs. Devs can optimize to a point, but if you're on a weaker system, you're going to experience worse performance if more stuff is around, it's that simple.

That said, I've always advocated a ROF decrease for Seeker missiles... but to counteract that, a considerable damage and heat boost. Right now it's 58 damage and you fire 1.2 a second, I think (in other words, 6 every 5 seconds); I say it should be 125-150 damage each missile but fired every 1.5-1.75 seconds.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 02 2012 - 06:39 AM.

[z121231211]

DarkPulse, on December 02 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

That said, I've always advocated a ROF decrease for Seeker missiles... but to counteract that, a considerable damage and heat boost. Right now it's 58 damage and you fire 1.2 a second, I think (in other words, 6 every 5 seconds); I say it should be 125-150 damage each missile but fired every 1.5-1.75 seconds.

Then EOC would lose it's only real advantage over the Seeker.

Edited by z121231211, December 02 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[defekt]

DarkPulse, on December 02 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

defekt, on December 02 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Not sure if trolling.

Nope, being blunt. So many seekers should not strangle a system unless it's on the weaker end of specs. Devs can optimize to a point, but if you're on a weaker system, you're going to experience worse performance if more stuff is around, it's that simple.

Explosions incur a frame rate hit and whilst strong systems will brawn their way through without issue, middling to weaker spec machines won't be so agile.  No other weapon floods the screen with so many explosions in such a short span of time so it seems at odds to add one weapon to the game that does this at the expense of making the game less able to run well on as many machines as possible.  For the sake of sorting this sh_t out you not only fix a broken weapon but you also improve the experience for the folks on less strong machines; everyone wins.

[DarkPulse]

z121231211, on December 02 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Then EOC would lose it's only real advantage over the Seeker.

It shouldn't have an advantage, that's the point. They need to be roughly equal; they would be in this case.

Think of the Seeker as massive front-loaded damage that's suitable for those who want to focus more on area denial tactics, whereas the EOC Repeater rewards those who want longer engagements and aim.

defekt, on December 02 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Explosions incur a frame rate hit and whilst strong systems will brawn their way through without issue, middling to weaker spec machines won't be so agile.  No other weapon floods the screen with so many explosions in such a short span of time so it seems at odds to add one weapon to the game that does this at the expense of making the game less able to run well on as many machines as possible.  For the sake of sorting this sh_t out you not only fix a broken weapon but you also improve the experience for the folks on less strong machines; everyone wins.

So maybe they need to simplify the explosion technicals on lower detail levels. (Less polys, shaders, etc.)

It still doesn't excuse a lower level machine though. You've got to expect some degree of worse performance on a lower specced system; it's the nature of the beast when it comes to PC games.

Who knows what they'll do with the Seeker - I'm sure they'll try to improve it on lower spec stuff but that takes extra work (as someone said, it's easier to start with a maximum and then work down as opposed to a minimum and then work up) but you can't 100% expect smooth framerates on a slower machine, basically. I'm pretty sure the devs will be turning ROF down, but there's still going to be people who just plain use them.

[z121231211]

DarkPulse, on December 02 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

z121231211, on December 02 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Then EOC would lose it's only real advantage over the Seeker.

It shouldn't have an advantage, that's the point. They need to be roughly equal; they would be in this case.

Think of the Seeker as massive front-loaded damage that's suitable for those who want to focus more on area denial tactics, whereas the EOC Repeater rewards those who want longer engagements and aim.

What I'm saying is that if your opponent knows how to use cover then you're at best only going to get one shot off him. With the Seeker you do little damage per hit, you pretty much hit once and then they get back to cover. While if you can hit with a burst of EOC you can do more damage. Now one seeker will do as much damage as a burst of EOC, except it has homing, making it a superior choice for just about all encounters. At least the ones I've been in.

I really need to experiment more with the mine-laying abilities of the EOC Repeater, but so far I've only found direct hits effective.

[defekt]

Quote

So maybe they need to simplify the explosion technicals on lower detail levels. (Less polys, shaders, etc.)
It still doesn't excuse a lower level machine though. You've got to expect some degree of worse performance on a lower specced system; it's the nature of the beast when it comes to PC games.

Lower detail explosions would certainly help.

I don't see why you need to keep banging on the 'low spec machines' drum, who are you trying to convince_  Anyone with a less strong machine already accepts the challenge of a harder-to-play game, no-one is contesting that.  I'm pointing out that clobbering performance for everyone with a less strong machine is not worth the addition of one, spammy weapon.  By extension of your logic, the introduction of a flame-type weapon that cripples performance on all machines (not just those being spammed in the face) bar the strongest would be a-okay; any sensible developer would not agree.  No one weapon is worth reducing the quality of play for a large chunk of your audience, particularly when said weapon could be implemented in ways that don't hurt performance, as you suggest.

[DarkPulse]

z121231211, on December 02 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

What I'm saying is that if your opponent knows how to use cover then you're at best only going to get one shot off him. With the Seeker you do little damage per hit, you pretty much hit once and then they get back to cover. While if you can hit with a burst of EOC you can do more damage. Now one seeker will do as much damage as a burst of EOC, except it has homing, making it a superior choice for just about all encounters. At least the ones I've been in.

Not quite so. If the rocket hits him now, the rocket does less damage compared against the EOC, meaning that the EOC is the superior weapon to use in this case as the Rocketeer can't compensate with ROF over the EOC; in other words, the Seekers are actually inferior as it is.

Changing it so it's a slower, lower-ROF weapon means that both weapons would do similar damage, making them approximately equally useful in this situation (assuming a full hit, of course); however, the rocket still has a much slower travel speed than the EOC, meaning that superior aim and reaction time is more likely to be rewarded with a hit versus the Seeker. It is less of a damage advantage, and more of a skill advantage.

defekt, on December 02 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't see why you need to keep banging on the 'low spec machines' drum, who are you trying to convince_  Anyone with a less strong machine already accepts the challenge of a harder-to-play game, no-one is contesting that.  I'm pointing out that clobbering performance for everyone with a less strong machine is not worth the addition of one, spammy weapon.  By extension of your logic, the introduction of a flame-type weapon that cripples performance on all machines (not just those being spammed in the face) bar the strongest would be a-okay; any sensible developer would not agree.  No one weapon is worth reducing the quality of play for a large chunk of your audience, particularly when said weapon could be implemented in ways that don't hurt performance, as you suggest.

No, I just don't really see a point in complaining about it when one has a weaker system, since even you are acknowledging it puts you at a disadvantage, one that most with weaker machines grudgingly accept due to their lower-spec hardware.

My point is that while the devs should indeed tune for lower-end stuff as well as higher-end stuff, there has to be an acceptable limit, and that generally speaking, the lower-spec users tend to have a trickle-down effect placed on them. So while they can improve it, it is no excuse for them to remove a weapon from the game, and they also need to make sure it doesn't look bad for higher-end users either.

And obviously, no developer designs weapons that murder FPS on purpose, so don't put words into my mouth or make assumptions based on things I have not said.

Furthermore, I don't see this "particularly large chunk of your audience" complaining about Seeker FPS loss as you claim. Players more often are complaining about how easy it is to use the Seeker and win, not about how bad it dents their FPS. In fact, you're the first person who has even brought it up, to my knowledge.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 02 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[Ace4225]

The Seeker needs some kind of nerf, or to be removed entirely. I've seen Seeker missiles follow people around corners [when I can't see them], pull 90 and even almost 180-degree turns, and on top of that, they do enough damage that you don't have to fire hellfires usually more than once before scoring a kill.

The ROF is fine; it's the actual seeking ability/DPS that need dumbing down.

[The_Silencer]

Seekers must be revised before OB1, indeed. I've not had, so to speak, any good experience with those Seekers during my CB3 games.

Edited by The_Silencer, December 03 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Alloycat]

I've been playing a fair bit of Brawler (lev10 atm) recently and really like it now I've started to get the hang of it. Think I may actually prefer it to my Berzerker now.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Also, like I've been saying since Alpha, play like a fat ninja.
It works.

Dreizehn, on November 29 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

You actually gotta be kinda sneaky with the Brawler. You can't have people spot you approaching them - they'll peck off your HP advantage and when you get close, you got a mobility disadvantage. It does sorta mean walking around to keep yourself off the radar, which can suck a lot but well.

High burst damage of course makes it great for corner kiting, and you can actually get a lot of cocky A-classes to play your game.

This is great advice, has helped me get the hang of them by keeping it in mind. To that end I've started running the Radar Scrambler on my Brawler. It's really usefull to help you get up on someone in a hurry without them realizing, and helps your team eneormously too. It might be better for a lighter mech to have it and let you carry an EMP, but unless your playing full premade you can't be sure of that, or what they'll do with it if they have one.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

First off, never use turret mode.
Never.

I don't totally agree with this though. As I was saying over in the Turret mode poll thread I find the Brawlers turret mode really usefull. I don't aim to fight in it, but instead use it as a repair where I can still defend myself. The regen from it is really good, probably about half the rate of the normal repair.

Using turret mode instead of repair has saved my life loads recently, in situations where I can't run (ie hemmed in at anti-air) or have run but suspect I may have been followed and/or don't have many teammates to cover me. The ability to still fire can mean you wreck that half health A-class that just boosted round the courner to finish you off before it gets a shot off, and the extra defense can mean you live if they do.

Edited by Alloycat, December 03 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[Ace4225]

Alloycat, on December 03 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

First off, never use turret mode.
Never.

I don't totally agree with this though. As I was saying over in the Turret mode poll thread I find the Brawlers turret mode really usefull. I don't aim to fight in it, but instead use it as a repair where I can still defend myself. The regen from it is really good, probably about half the rate of the normal repair.

Using turret mode instead of repair has saved my life loads recently, in situations where I can't run (ie hemmed in at anti-air) or have run but suspect I may have been followed and/or don't have many teammates to cover me. The ability to still fire can mean you wreck that half health A-class that just boosted round the courner to finish you off before it gets a shot off, and the extra defense can mean you live if they do.

In pub matches against average players, maybe it works. But against more experienced opponents, you'll just end up becoming a sitting duck.

What if that A-class that's chasing you down gets to you before you've completed going into turret mode_ If he's that far behind that you have the time to get into it, he's also got the time to change up his position, call in a teammate, and flank you. Then you're cooked.

You might as well just repair [get your HP back faster] and get back to fighting [without limiting your maneuverability]

Edited by Ace4225, December 03 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Alloycat]

Ace4225, on December 03 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

In pub matches against average players, maybe it works. But against more experienced opponents, you'll just end up becoming a sitting duck.

What if that A-class that's chasing you down gets to you before you've completed going into turret mode_ If he's that far behind that you have the time to get into it, he's also got the time to change up his position, call in a teammate, and flank you. Then you're cooked.

You might as well just repair [get your HP back faster] and get back to fighting [without limiting your maneuverability]

Then I'm dead whatever choice I make. But if he's a second later I might not be. If they don't come at all then I've not wasted time not gaining any health compaired to trying to ambush him, and I can leave turret and finish a normall repair if I think I'm safe.

I'm guess I'm an average pub player, (though I'm starting to top the team more oftern), sounds like the OP probably is too. It works for me, might work for him.

When you account for the time it takes to back off to cover, and get back to the fight, the additional time of healing in turret mode compaired to repairing isn't all that huge.

Edited by Alloycat, December 03 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The time it takes you to get into turret mode, and heal a bit would have better spent trying to get to cover to escape and/or heal.
By going into turret mode, you will not gain enough heal to nullify the fact that you have made yourself extremely vulnerable.

If you don't have teammates to back you up, turret mode will just get you killed by a pursuer, and if you do, it's just faster to heal regularly.

Trust a guy who's been playing C-Classes since Alpha. When I say never use turret mode, I mean it.

[Frenotx]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 03 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

The time it takes you to get into turret mode, and heal a bit would have better spent trying to get to cover to escape and/or heal.
By going into turret mode, you will not gain enough heal to nullify the fact that you have made yourself extremely vulnerable.

If you don't have teammates to back you up, turret mode will just get you killed by a pursuer, and if you do, it's just faster to heal regularly.

Trust a guy who's been playing C-Classes since Alpha. When I say never use turret mode, I mean it.

The sad truth. I've been playing an infiltrator in CB3, but rolled an EOC rocketeer for CB1 and CB2. Turret mode is a ridiculous liability, and the only time I ever used it was when I was just fuzzy bunny around / not really playing. I suppose I used it a few times in legit games, but it was always a,  "Hrmm. It can't be that bad. Maybe I'll give it another chance..... NOPE. STILL SUCKS." situation.

[Ace4225]

Frenotx, on December 03 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I suppose I used it a few times in legit games, but it was always a,  "Hrmm. It can't be that bad. Maybe I'll give it another chance..... NOPE. STILL SUCKS." situation.

lol yeah...