101 replies to this topic

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

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4v3 is a problem.

No, its the skill gap between players.

skill gap and player numbers are two separate factors that effect the chances of either team winning.

that is to say, you are wrong because 3v4 would be unfair, even if all the players had the same skill level
skill level clearly a mutually exclusive factor to the raw force of team numbers.

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Your solution actively stops one single player playing,

it doesn't stop them leaving and finding another server room. and NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM STOPS one team from having a fair match, .....which leads to rage/xp quits....which leads to the game stopping....which leads to no-one gaming....which means yet again i log on, try and get a match, and its like 20minutes of server hopping until a game actually starts.

even if my suggested solution (which is awesome) does't get put in the game, Something has to be done about these unstable team-matches.

Attention to details like these MATTERS because otherwise you just don't provide an environment for people to treat the game like a proper sport.....like lets say...starcraft.

End of the day the players are merciless for xp.
hardly anyone EVER swaps team like i do.

something clearly has to be done.

My solution is awesome: first odd one out to die has to wait.

This is the logic tree.
sentium vs prosk
its a 4v3....odd one out system is implimented...what happens.

1, no-one on sentium dies, its a steam roll ...game ends.....sentium wins.

Low probability, people explode all the time.

2. the first player to get ganged on or make a mistake dies, and begins waiting...three things can happen
WHILST A FAIR 3v3 IS BEING FOUGHT
a ) someone randomly joins, solving the problem, the game continues 4v4 : game is fair and continues.
b )someone doesn't join, the odd one out player waits until one of his team mates dies, then hits the launch button. game is 3v3 and continues.
c ) player leaves server, 3v3 continues, and player goes back into the server pool.

looking at the statistics of play that i have taken from the many games i have seen, the solution 2a is what would happen 90% of the time.

this is a much much better system than getting gang-ripped in 50% of the games,

That is the a key insight. the vast majority of games are not even close to balanced atm. and im not talking skill level which is as arbitary as we wind.....im talking the RAW FORCE of 4v2

MOST games right now are not 3v3, or 2v2, or 1v1, or 4v4 or 5v5 or 6v6.
The vast majority are some other combination.

My suggestion fixes this cleanly and simply.
As to regard on playing with team/mates clans....that can be solved by another system ill make in another thread. the tried and tested 'group' system used in many competitive multiplayer games.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, November 30 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[BucketOfSkin]

I've played a lot of free to play games as well as a lot of team based matches in all sorts of games, the reality is that people come and people go. Ultimately the skills of the individual will prevail in an uneven match. If it forces someone to quit because they are overwhelmed, they are missing the point of using the opportunity to get better. I would think many would agree with me the immense satisfaction of downing two or three mechs in one go and holding ground for your team if you are outnumbered. Where the balance change needs to happen is if people leave either team it should rank and switch the number of people needed to make it a close match. Don't make people sit on the sidelines. I'd quit this game, I've come to destroy stuff! Someone in this thread already stated that most seasoned players would have no trouble switching for the sake of fairness. I also believe these are the people who truly believe that they get much more skilled by doing this because it usually means leaving the winning side. Just my two cents.
--
Bucket

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

i see where you are coming from, but more people quit due depression caused by an uneven fight.

Also being made to sit on the side lines would end up being a very small amount of time.
This whole scenario is a problem that happens on many games

a warning to the developers

this issue MATTERS

many games have flopped due to poor multiplayer mechanics. Whatever you do, you must pay extra special attention to the team balancing mechanic that players are forced to use when they enter a game.

[marshalade]

G4M5T3R, on November 30 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

This would be waaay to complicated of a fix to a problem that wont exist in 7 days...

This. Nearly every game will be 6v6 come open beta. MM stacking skilled players will still be an issue, but a lack of players will not.

[Omega22]

hawken is about having fun and skill... not what guns you have, how many guns you have or how many guns are in your team... lots of skilled ace mech players here.. i seen their garage and mind you nearly all maxed out levels

makes me wonder indeed.... how they gonna address this one... team in balance  but then again this is Hawken , u rely 99% on skill and the 1% on your guns to do the killing...

and if you not a skill player... sob sob enjoy the dieing ( the amount of rage i seen in game is shocking )

Edited by Omega22, November 30 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Sylhiri]

We do have a large player stats list in game currently. I can see them utilizing that to get the closest possible measurement of player skill they can besides using only mech levels.

In any case the majority most likely will be using the Server Browser in Open Beta next month.

[Omega22]

i have a question, will our current mech stats etc carry over when the game launches or must we start from scratch.. thanks

[Sylhiri]

Omega22, on November 30 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

i have a question, will our current mech stats etc carry over when the game launches or must we start from scratch.. thanks

They are wiping everything at the end of CB3 with the exception of your callsign.

[Omega22]

Crap all my hard work for nothing ... thanks for the heads up..i think iam gonna wait for the launch hey bye the way you know how to change call sign...

[Sylhiri]

I don't think you can do it easily besides making an new account or putting in a request to the team, none that I know of anyway.

[Titzilla]

I'm sorry, but making a player sit out is something I still do not find to be the most optimal suggestion. Anything that promotes players quitting due to them having to wait is a bad system, even if you think it's awesome. Players may quit due to it being uneven, or they may stay in. It's much more likely that they will quit if they are forced to sit there doing nothing in my opinion.

Also, as G4M5T3R and marshalade have mentioned, it is unlikely this issue will remain for long in open beta. While there will still be balance issues, there will be enough players for situations with large imbalances to rarely occur.

Omega22, on November 30 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Crap all my hard work for nothing

The reasoning behind the wipes is that we already get a head start by being in closed beta and getting to play it before everyone else. Getting the additional advantages of free meteor points and multiple mechs is not fair in any way.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

urgh, i just had a game where it was 4 v 6 on missile assault pretty much the entire time.

frustrating and pointless.

Something has to be done, i would be HAPPY to wait in line SOME of the time if it ment teams were balanced ALL of the time. End of story.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

just had ANOTHER serires of games on missile assault. I noticed that i was so busy concentrating on the game i didn't even realise it was 4v6.

no wonder it was a steam roll.

I again re-read this entire thread, and i AGAIN come to the conclusion that making odd-one-out-players WAIT until teams are equal is a genius and simple plan.

it could even be on a simple rotation where if you are the odd one out (in lets say a team of 4) then after one of the 3 players on the field dies, you can launch. thus spreading the burden of waiting ones turn

i want to reiterate this again.
I am TOTALLY happy to sit there and wait for someone to die , or a new player to join....than be FORCED to experience all these XP rage quits.

games of equal teams are rare now, its like im playing EVE

[Subdivision]

I honestly don't know if you're just being a troll now...

[Beemann]

People rage out of even matches too
I made somebody on the higher pop. team RQ just this morning, and sometimes Asian and I end up on the same team and make stacked teams rage out until we suddenly have the advantage
So by no means are you "forced" to sit through ragequits just because one team has an extra member or two. In fact, a 2 man lead means that at least one player ALREADY rage quit
Also, just because YOU are willing to not play Hawken, doesn't mean everyone is

Edited by Beemann, December 01 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

im not being a troll. and beemann....you are advocating unbalanced teams as some sort of feature_ wow...you and your mate had a good time...now and again. so everything is fine_

whatever. my suggested fix is elegant and simple, and i know that if it was implemented, people would just accept it and have gg's.......there will be plenty of games where one team steam-rolls another team with SKILL

im removing the instances where its 2 v 6.

Beenman, it sounds like your suggesting that constant server hopping for a fair game is somehow an acceptable thing, or that it is secretly good.


not sure if troll...or just stupid .!..

[Subdivision]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on December 02 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

im not being a troll.  just stupid .!..

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on December 02 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

im removing the instances where its 2 v 6.

We're trying to tell you this would STILL HAPPEN. And by adding a mechanic that stops somebody from playing for any amount of time damages a game's reputation and thus it is an awful idea. If YOU don't mind being on the bench for a while, that's fine! Go you! But 99% of the mass market that will bring in the income for this game for the developers will NOT.

[SunshineSloth]

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come to the conclusion that making odd-one-out-players WAIT until teams are equal is a genius and simple plan.

Okay it's decided. You sit out of all future games. That's one step to a fair game. Next time it'll be 4 v 5.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

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We're trying to tell you this would STILL HAPPEN.

factually incorrect.
No it won't with this fix, they might be on the server, but they can't click launch until a team-mate dies. bringing the total number of mechs on the field to (lets say its 4v3) 3v3 ...with the 4th one waiting.

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And by adding a mechanic that stops somebody from playing for any amount of time damages a game's reputation and thus it is an awful idea.

Its not going to damage the game's reputation. the following Sentence will damage the games reputation.

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" OH YEAH HAWKENS A GREAT GAME, and you buy upgrades for real money if you want, ITS AWESOMe......but it is still a TDM like like Quake....lol but unlike quake when you get 4 vs 2 you just get fucked......kinda  a disappointment if you ask me......"

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If YOU don't mind being on the bench for a while, that's fine! Go you! But 99% of the mass market that will bring in the income for this game for the developers will NOT.

Fail. you are incorrect.

the truth is, MOST of the time a new player will come along and make the team balanced again it might only take a minute or 2
Also, when you are the odd one out...its almost certain that someone on your team that is on-the-field will die..
So then THEY wait, and you click launch...thus 'spreading the burden.

you are also missing the point that  the odd one out player can still leave and join another server.
ALSO this system means guaranteed equal-numbers game.

i don't think you are really stepping back and realizing how the HUGE chunk of the server stats show unbalanced teams. BALANCED teams is almost a Rarity.

normally in quake and UT3 that ain't so much of a problem because who cares right_ you already bought the game.

but in this game, with its micro-transaction system, and the hyper-competitiveness of its players all scraping for that inch of xp (just look at the flame wars lol)...unbalanced teams is just Depressing....frustrating...rage quit...xp quit....uninstall game....

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, December 02 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Subdivision]

No. Let me explain this clear and simple for you as to why it will still have people rage quitting.


Game starts with 7 players.
4 on  one side, 3 on the other.
One player is on the bench and waits to join (ideally)
8th player joins, equal teams, everyone is playing
One team begins to dominate, the other is getting crushed.
Weak moral players leave the game.
Game is now 4 vs 2. Game is unbalanced once again.
Now TWO players are forced out of play when they die.
They get annoyed as they were winning.
One switches to even game out again. 3v3
Losing team still loses. The player that switched has effectively been punished for doing well.

Now lets look at what will happen come open beta in most games (without your system)

Game starts with 7 players
4 on one team, 3 on the other
Game starts, nobody is benched or waiting but having FUN PLAYING
8th player joins, 4v4 balanced out
One team is losing, 2 people rage quit.
4v2, unbalanced.
More people join in a little later.
Game balances out again.
People leave, unbalances
Game fills up, balanced
.....so on and so on.....

You see once more people can play the game it will be more likely to balance itself out. The natural way people play and want to enjoy the game means people will ALWAYS rage quit, need to leave or whatever. That's the nature of online gaming. Your solution only solves one issue, numbers. Not skill balance or anything else. I've seen plenty smaller teams take down bigger ones. Skill difference is the main factor for people leaving games.

And stop saying I'm factually incorrect or fail. As I have just explained in this post, quitting will still happen.

Can you at least acknowledge it is a negative thing to actively stop a player or players from playing_