203 replies to this topic

[drama]

[ReachH]

Even if you had 10k mastery, you would still be put into stomp after stomp. Its just how the game demographics are right now. Annnnd NA has the biggest concentration of greenhorns of any server (probably because it just has the biggest new-OB-player count anyway).

Just face it DarkPulse, someone who is better than you posted better stats. In pretty much every way. NOW BURY THIS TOPIC.

[DarkPulse]

PiVoR, on December 29 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

And that means, since you dont have solid arguments, you have NO RIGHT to say whos pubstomping and whos playing against finest out there.

The matchmaking, as it is right now, is actively keeping you away from higher-mastery players. That is a 100% solid argument, because there is no way whatsoever that you will go up against a server full of higher-mastery (and thus more experienced) players without you raising your mastery.

Therefore, I think my point is entirely valid.

I don't doubt for a second that you will still have high numbers, but I also am pretty sure they would go down some degree, if you were being mixed in with higher mastery players, instead of people in the roughly 3000 range.

ReachH, on December 29 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Even if you had 10k mastery, you would still be put into stomp after stomp. Its just how the game demographics are right now. Annnnd NA has the biggest concentration of greenhorns of any server (probably because it just has the biggest new-OB-player count anyway).

Just face it DarkPulse, someone who is better than you posted better stats. In pretty much every way. NOW BURY THIS TOPIC.

First: Don't tell me what to do.

Second: I'm not denying he has better stats. I don't even care that he has better stats (I don't have nearly that amount of time to blow on this game; I'm not as young and don't have as much free time as I used to). I don't intend to play Hawken around the clock like he apparently can, and there are many other projects and things that I do for my own amusement.

But I do think he's also not playing the higher mastery players (who are likely the better players which would be more of a challenge) because his mastery is low. Because that's how matchmaking curently works. It's not impossible that lower-mastery players are good, nor is it impossible that higher-mastery players are bad - but you'll find a hell of a lot more bad players at lower mastery, and a hell of a lot more good players at higher mastery.

Until the Mech Mastery score changes somehow to reflect skill, his numbers are, at least to a degree, inflated (though how much is another question), as I seriously doubt he would be able to hold such high numbers if he were playing against people with higher mastery, i.e; people who generally have a handle on the game mechanics and minutiae, as opposed to a bunch of people who have just figured out how to run a mech or two pretty well. Even if they're not as skilled as he is, the higher-mastery players in general are not going to fall for the same sorts of tricks and traps that a lower-mastery player will.

It's a given that pretty much any Alpha or Beta player has an edge up on the greenhorns who have joined in the two weeks that the game has been put out into open beta; therefore, those are probably the only people that will really challenge him (save for the occasional, raw talent) right now, and realistically, I am pretty sure most of those people have mastery at least in the 4000-5000 range, if not higher. This means that PiVoR's lower mastery will freeze him out of matches from facing these players if there's enough of them to skew the server Mech Mastery average above his current Mech Mastery. It's this that I take objection to - not his stats, as right now, short of him raising Mastery, or a patch changing how Mech Mastery is calculated, there is basically nothing that will change this situation.

I've heard that there will be matchmaking changes in the January 3rd patch. We'll see how things go then. Maybe we'll get an explanation as to how it works. Maybe it will take actual stats into effect to determine a Mastery score. Either of these would answer some questions and the latter would solve things entirely, but only Adhesive knows what changes, exactly, to the system are being done.

[PiVoR]

How many times i need to tell you, that how matchmaking works with mastery has no any point, since you have no way to tell how good somebody is_

DarkPulse, on December 30 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

...but you'll find a hell of a lot more bad players at lower mastery, and a hell of a lot more good players at higher mastery...

How you can be so sure_ Any more theory or math for that_ Or again you base yourself on some more "assumptions"_

[Frostings]

In Oceania there are very few games going on at once.

Remember this devs, I hope your planned tweaks don't exclude people from the games that are active or make it take longer to join them. Just a reminder that not everyone has such a large pool to be picky with.

Edited by Frostings, December 30 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[DarkPulse]

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

How many times i need to tell you, that how matchmaking works with mastery has no any point, since you have no way to tell how good somebody is_

Wrong, sir! The whole point of matchmaking is that it tries to determine your relative level of skill, and then lumps you in with players of similar levels of skill, in the attempt to give you a match that's not too easy, and not impossible, either.

However, currently matchmaking in this game runs off one thing, and one thing only: Mech Mastery. In other words, it doesn't even measure skill at all. So while you're technically right in saying "you have no way to tell how good somebody is," and obviously you can't account for every single scenario in a given ranking, you can generally figure that in any sort of matchmaking system, a lower-numbered player is going to be presumed to be inferior to a higher-numbered player (at least, assuming it's an Elo-like score and not a literal numerical ranking). Otherwise, matchmaking would make no sense if there was not some sort of way to describe skill and/or experience.

So it goes in Hawken: Lower-numbered players have less mechs, less items, less internals, and less cumulative levels. Therefore, they are either players who are not interested in getting more mechs, or else they are simply newer players. The latter is normal; the former also is, but it currently has the side effect of locking you out of servers where higher-mastery players are playing, since right now skills do not factor into it in the slightest. You could be God's gift to Hawken, dying once for every 100 kills you get, and if your Mech Mastery is 2000-3000, it will still throw you up against players who won't even begin to scratch you. (Then again, it's not like higher players will do much better if you're that good, but obviously this is an exaggeration.)

So basically, yes, unless the formula gets reworked to actually factor in player skill, you're basically playing with at least 60-75% players who are just starting to get a hang in the game, and that's likely a conservative estimate. Obviously good players are not going to hang at lower mastery like you are, generally speaking, because more mechs mean more potential options for them to fight with, which makes them more rounded players as opposed to niche roles.

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

How you can be so sure_ Any more theory or math for that_ Or again you base yourself on some more "assumptions"_

Not really a theory, more like logical deduction. It's simple: Is the player who really only casually plays Hawken even going to get in the 3000s range_ Odds are not for a long, long, long time. The guy who only devotes a couple of hours to Hawken a week isn't going to have the time to get plenty of matches in; since it takes time and dedication to level the mechs, he will thus level slower, which means his Mastery also accrues slower.

Let's assume, for example, that it takes about 15 hours to level a mech up from scratch to 25, without any boosters. Based upon your old screenshot and your mastery being 2180, and assuming you indeed filled both item slots and all three internals, that would mean that a fully kitted and leveled mech nets you exactly 1090 Mastery.

To do this with three mechs, you need about 45 hours then. Four mechs, sixty. And so on. Obviously, the more time you spend at any sort of task, the better you get at that task eventually.

The more time you play, the better you get at the game. Again, I'm not denying your skill, you obviously play far more (and far longer) than I do, which is probably why you tear people up as much as you do. But the basic point is, do you really think that most people who are at the 3000 range are really among the better players in Hawken_ The only logical answer is no; the better players will eventually move up the chain. Normally this would mean a higher Elo score or whatever, but right now, for some reason, this is determined only by the things a player has gotten and the amount of time he has spent playing. Skill plays no part in determining the ranking, so basically anyone can reach the theoretical top value (which, assuming they buy one of each mech and also have a Cupcake, is 1090 * 11 = 11,990 Mastery) as long as they put enough effort into the game; the only difference is "how quickly will you get there." Obviously, that's not an ideal solution by any stretch of the imagination.

However, the game seems to have no lower bounds for checking if a player is "too good" - only an upper bound for if they are "good enough." The simple fact is that even if you're a really blithering putz at Hawken right now, if your mastery is high enough, the game will happily pit you with players who will school you as they're superior skilled, but on the same mastery as you; meanwhile, you also have the reverse situation where a player with lower mastery is assumed to be not as versed in the game, and so to try to prevent the player from having a bad time, the game will keep him out of servers where the average mastery is higher than his.

Or to put it another way, you may be correct that Mastery is no guarantee of skill. I fully agree there. But you also can't deny that the people on your level are going to be exactly as challenging as higher-Mastery competition since those are the players who will have put in more time, have more experience, and presumably are thus going to be a little better than those below them. It's currently a terribly flawed system for reasons I mentioned, but right now it's what the game has. Improvements are needed and agreed upon by all since right now the good players can stomp, and the not-as-good players get stomped. That's boring for the good players and not fun at all for the not-as-good ones.

It's thus best for Hawken's future to dump Mech Mastery from being by what you've bought and your levels, and have it be a number solely based on skill and performance. Then it doesn't matter if you buy two mechs or ten - if your stats are that high, it will throw you against more of the best and less of the rest. And if they're not the best, then obviously you'll get competition that will pit you against players of similar skill, not hellspawn that just chew you up and spit you out.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 30 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[Woobins]

Fuzzy bunny, I thought I typed a lot.

You know.. this whole altercation could be completely omitted by emailing/asking the devs how the mech mastery stat works and its function with matchmaking.

In the mean time I am inclined to agree with PiVoR, despite your efforts to explain with logical deduction DarkPulse - to which I think you are correct, it is still only an assumption and you cant expect everyone to just agree - as frustrating as that sounds. Just ask the devs and save yourselves the hassle, you've otherwise presented what you know, let people decide if they want to agree with it or not until more information is made available.


On a side note for the OP im on rank 4550 with a highest killstreak of 24 on my infil and 21 on my cupcake.

Edited by Woobins, December 30 2012 - 03:35 AM.

[xanthousphoenix]

To the ceaseless (and pointless) arguing in this thread...

[DarkPulse]

Woobins, on December 30 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Fuzzy bunny, I thought I typed a lot.

You know.. this whole altercation could be completely omitted by emailing/asking the devs how the mech mastery stat works and its function with matchmaking.

In the mean time I am inclined to agree with PiVoR, despite your efforts to explain with logical deduction DarkPulse - to which I think you are correct, it is still only an assumption and you cant expect everyone to just agree - as frustrating as that sounds. Just ask the devs and save yourselves the hassle, you've otherwise presented what you know, let people decide if they want to agree with it or not until more information is made available.

It won't matter much. Matchmaking is supposedly getting overhauled as of the next patch, and that's due to drop on January 3rd from what I heard.

If it's still identical after that patch, then I likely will be raising a more visible complaint.

xanthousphoenix, on December 30 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

To the ceaseless (and pointless) arguing in this thread...

Apparently, however, it was perfectly worth your time to post this.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 30 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[ReachH]

DarkPulse, on December 30 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

- Tome of Epic Knowledge Vol. XII -

[PiVoR]

Thx for explaining me whats the general point of matmaking, rly didnt know. again /sarcasm
And yes, in current Hawken bulid, matchmaking makes no sense cause it matches players with similiar garage size.

Your problem is that you assume that everyone who begins to play Hawken is total newb that will learn the game at the rate in which his mastery rises, and will someday reach the level of uber pro (on around 8k mastery ofcourse) excluding some entities that breaks the rule (like ME that hangs on low mastery on purpose - ROFL). and your ego obscures you how much you are wrong.

Everything you say is based on YOUR theories and YOUR assumptions, that have no solid proofs whatsoever, thus no one is going to take you seriously, i think you dont even belive yourself at this point.

xanthousphoenix, on December 30 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

To the ceaseless (and pointless) arguing in this thread...

I enjoy reading his tales "Why he didnt yet conquered the Hawken", so its not pointless =).

[DarkPulse]

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Your problem is that you assume that everyone who begins to play Hawken is total newb that will learn the game at the rate in which his mastery rises, and will someday reach the level of uber pro (on around 8k mastery ofcourse) excluding some entities that breaks the rule (like ME that hangs on low mastery on purpose - ROFL). and your ego obscures you how much you are wrong.

Wrong yet again.

You keep assuming that, for some reason, I am saying high mastery automatically equals high skill. I've already said before there are good low mastery players, and bad high mastery players. However, in a very general sense, people with higher mastery will generally be more competent at the game - not pro, but they'll sure as hell have a feel for the weapons, the mech types, and be able to prioritize and so forth. That isn't "uber pro" level, that's "competent player" level. 8k players may or may not be "uber pro," but they damn sure should know what they're doing by that point. This is what you don't seem to get, and it's probably the fourth time I've explained this. Please get it right as I'm terribly tired of re-explaining things.

Also, you are sticking to low mastery on purpose (though it's not to cheap out on anything, it's simply because you don't want to get more mechs), but that's not a problem in and of itself, because it's not your fault that the devs assumed that players would keep grabbing new mechs - it's actually a shortsight on their part. It's only a "problem" because I'm pretty sure it's preventing you from playing servers full of high mastery players for reasons I already mentioned, so you're not getting the best challenge you could get.

As I've said before, Mech Mastery taking skill into account, as opposed to just what you got, pretty much kills my arguments because then it will become an actual representation of a player's skill as opposed to some arbitrary measure of how many virtual robots you bought.

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Everything you say is based on YOUR theories and YOUR assumptions, that have no solid proofs whatsoever, thus no one is going to take you seriously, i think you dont even belive yourself at this point

Of course I have no proof - but considering what we DO know, and what the devs HAVE said, it's a very logical assumption for how things work. If you've got a better one, I'd love to hear it, because I am fairly confident that, unless things are done in certain ways (as outlined a few pages back), the game will indeed keep you away from higher mastery players. It is, after all, matchmaking - it has to have SOMETHING to go by. That something right now is Mech Mastery, and yours is low, so if I'm right, it will exclude you from situations I mentioned. Of course, there is no way to know this, since the game keeps all of this stuff in the background, and to you it will just look like it takes a little bit longer to find a server by a few seconds.

Still, we'll see what the devs have changed when they drop the next patch. Me personally, I'm going to stop caring about this stuff the second the server browser comes back. I want servers with low ping, and once I have that, I couldn't care less about silly matchmaking.

[Coldbound]

My best killstreak at the moment is 23. :/
Why are we still arguing about the same thing as 5 pages before. Darkpulses point makes a lot of sense and maybe you should start a new topic and explain how matchmaking works for everybody.

[Silchas]

Easily the most pointless, inane argument on these forums; you two should just take it to PM's.

[xbox690]

so.. much.. buthurt

[AsianJoyKiller]

I'd just like to point out Killstreaks don't win tournaments...
/epeen

:3

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, December 30 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[WickedSoN]

DarkPulse, on December 30 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

PiVoR, on December 29 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

And that means, since you dont have solid arguments, you have NO RIGHT to say whos pubstomping and whos playing against finest out there.

The matchmaking, as it is right now, is actively keeping you away from higher-mastery players. That is a 100% solid argument, because there is no way whatsoever that you will go up against a server full of higher-mastery (and thus more experienced) players without you raising your mastery.

Therefore, I think my point is entirely valid.

I don't doubt for a second that you will still have high numbers, but I also am pretty sure they would go down some degree, if you were being mixed in with higher mastery players, instead of people in the roughly 3000 range.

ReachH, on December 29 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Even if you had 10k mastery, you would still be put into stomp after stomp. Its just how the game demographics are right now. Annnnd NA has the biggest concentration of greenhorns of any server (probably because it just has the biggest new-OB-player count anyway).

Just face it DarkPulse, someone who is better than you posted better stats. In pretty much every way. NOW BURY THIS TOPIC.

First: Don't tell me what to do.

Second: I'm not denying he has better stats. I don't even care that he has better stats (I don't have nearly that amount of time to blow on this game; I'm not as young and don't have as much free time as I used to). I don't intend to play Hawken around the clock like he apparently can, and there are many other projects and things that I do for my own amusement.

But I do think he's also not playing the higher mastery players (who are likely the better players which would be more of a challenge) because his mastery is low. Because that's how matchmaking curently works. It's not impossible that lower-mastery players are good, nor is it impossible that higher-mastery players are bad - but you'll find a hell of a lot more bad players at lower mastery, and a hell of a lot more good players at higher mastery.

Until the Mech Mastery score changes somehow to reflect skill, his numbers are, at least to a degree, inflated (though how much is another question), as I seriously doubt he would be able to hold such high numbers if he were playing against people with higher mastery, i.e; people who generally have a handle on the game mechanics and minutiae, as opposed to a bunch of people who have just figured out how to run a mech or two pretty well. Even if they're not as skilled as he is, the higher-mastery players in general are not going to fall for the same sorts of tricks and traps that a lower-mastery player will.

It's a given that pretty much any Alpha or Beta player has an edge up on the greenhorns who have joined in the two weeks that the game has been put out into open beta; therefore, those are probably the only people that will really challenge him (save for the occasional, raw talent) right now, and realistically, I am pretty sure most of those people have mastery at least in the 4000-5000 range, if not higher. This means that PiVoR's lower mastery will freeze him out of matches from facing these players if there's enough of them to skew the server Mech Mastery average above his current Mech Mastery. It's this that I take objection to - not his stats, as right now, short of him raising Mastery, or a patch changing how Mech Mastery is calculated, there is basically nothing that will change this situation.

I've heard that there will be matchmaking changes in the January 3rd patch. We'll see how things go then. Maybe we'll get an explanation as to how it works. Maybe it will take actual stats into effect to determine a Mastery score. Either of these would answer some questions and the latter would solve things entirely, but only Adhesive knows what changes, exactly, to the system are being done.

This guy cracks me up.He goes on an on about how he doesnt care, and that he doesn't have nearly the amount of time to play hawken as the other guys but he has plenty of time to sit on these forums and right dissertations and why he is always right. If he spent half the amount of time "masterying" mech's in game as he did crying on these forums he might actually improve his kill streak (read: the whole purpose of this thread).

Keep on posting though DarkPulse, you are winning

[PiVoR]

DarkPulse, on December 30 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

However, in a very general sense, people with higher mastery will generally be more competent at the game - not pro, but they'll sure as hell have a feel for the weapons, the mech types, and be able to prioritize and so forth. That isn't "uber pro" level, that's "competent player" level. 8k players may or may not be "uber pro," but they damn sure should know what they're doing by that point.

Again, anything to back this up_ Some math_ Statistics_ SOMETHING beside your imagination_

Quote

Also, you are sticking to low mastery on purpose (though it's not to cheap out on anything, it's simply because you don't want to get more mechs)...

I bought a Bruiser! I got you!
Im such a bad boy, im sitting on low mastery cause i dont have endless MP to keep buying anything i want =(.

Quote

If you've got a better one, I'd love to hear it...

Sure
We know that mastery=garage
Devs said that mastery=matchmaking
So simplest logic is that matchmaking=garage

Somehow you see SKILL in between lines here.

Quote

It is, after all, matchmaking - it has to have SOMETHING to go by..

Yes, and its got... GARAGE SIZE.

And for last time, how matchmaking works has no sense. Even if your... "theory" is right, game excludes me from high mastery games... SO WHAT_ I dont play with people that got more mechs than me, thats F it.

[ReachH]

Common guys, its almost our 10 page butthurtaversary.

[DarkPulse]

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Again, anything to back this up_ Some math_ Statistics_ SOMETHING beside your imagination_

Since they've released no info_ No. You can only make a logical guess, because only a handful of people know how it works, and it might all change within another four days anyway.

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

I bought a Bruiser! I got you!
Im such a bad boy, im sitting on low mastery cause i dont have endless MP to keep buying anything i want =(.

It's not doing that that's bad, it's the fact the devs basically tied mech mastery to levels, items, internals, and garage as opposed to actual player skill for some incredibly dumb reason.

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Sure
We know that mastery=garage
Devs said that mastery=matchmaking
So simplest logic is that matchmaking=garage

Somehow you see SKILL in between lines here.

I've made it quite clear that mastery does not equal skill, and that is actually the problem. But I also do generally believe that, as it's calculated right now, people with higher masteries do tend to be better simply because they're the people continuing to invest time into the game. Is it a hard-and-fast-rule_ No, but you can generally assume you're less likely to have someone at high mastery who sucks versus low mastery who is good.

PiVoR, on December 30 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Yes, and its got... GARAGE SIZE.

And for last time, how matchmaking works has no sense. Even if your... "theory" is right, game excludes me from high mastery games... SO WHAT_ I dont play with people that got more mechs than me, thats F it.

The problem is this lumps you more with the players who aren't as good versus players who, on average, know the game better.