24 replies to this topic

[Woobins]

I searched throughout the forums for other threads but didn't find any like the one being proposed now (or im blind, sorry if so D: ). TL;DR below

Often in games that feature team modes there is always the frustration of lack of teamwork and the issue of incentivising players into teamwork to support each other out to fulfill a common goal short of yelling/spamming people to get to the missile silo. The goal of this thread is to gather opinions and suggestions for what can work for the different/current game modes at best - that will help in steering people away from the 'K/D ratio' and more toward the team objective - or at least get your yay/nay for adjustments to the current scoring system before getting onto something more specific.

When there's more liked suggestions I may create another poll with said suggestions, would also love the devs to chime in as you guys may already have your own ideas/systems still yet to be implemented and that you're just using K/D/A as a placeholder.

To get to the point, a note to consider and my opinion to kick things off;

- From what I've seen; Rank/placement is sorted by Experience points earned during a match, which generally means people with the highest K/D ratios and assists will be seeing the top more often, challenged only by high level CRT/cupcakes with the experience point internal upgrades. In deathmatch I can accept this scoring system as it is lone-wolf encouraging gameplay for a mode that is lone-wolf by nature so it fits just fine, but for the team modes like missile assault and siege especially I feel its a different story and that the scoring systems should be made to tailor to the teams completing the objectives set in those game modes.

- Having a K/D/A scoring system within easy access (tab) in a game that relies on teamwork to win gives mixed messages about who really 'wins' for the majority of people and is not conducive to a teamwork goal driven environment, so I would rather have it entirely removed/unable to be seen or changed to something of an Overall team score rather than highlighting individuals in a team. Every attempt made in making it look like 'this group wins' as opposed to 'this individual wins' I think would be a step in the right direction for team games which includes adjusting the final award/showcase room after a match is finished.

- Things like this are also what I believe causes huge schisms between clan level play and pub games as you're either a newb or a 'pro', very little room for in between's as everyone figures out the quickest way to kill someone since after all, killing someone is what contributes to our score as an individual and as a result is often what most of us perceive as winning in our own ways, even in team games, im sure many of you (including me) occasionally tab just to.. 'check' our score. (however I understand this is quite a broad assumption, but is given to offer a different perspective hopefully)

- Rather than highlighting highest scores and having identifiers like the Rank position on the bottom left (or at least change the basis of which you are ranked by in team games), highlight the most contributions like EU delivered, assists, repairs (there is a repair gun in the works after all afaik), point held longest by which team and making it more evident that that is the way to win, with teamwork. (*edited* beforehand I said to offer bonuses for teamwork behaviour, but as G4M5T3R pointed out this is actually already a part of the game)

- Achievements and total tally/score cards or leaderboard rankings are also elements that easily promote lone-wolf gameplay even in a team environment and are not exempt from this. Personally I am glad we don't have weapons that are only unlocked by getting a certain achievement and I really hope it stays that way.

Having said that, I could just be bat-fuzzy bunny crazy as to why I would want to remove the scoreboard, so id love to hear your opinions/suggestions instead, whether overall, a few, specifically for a single mode or keeping the scoreboard as is!


TL;DR

- I think the scoreboard displaying kill/death ratios should be removed from team games including the end-of-match hall adjusted to benefit goals that help the team rather than goals that pamper the individual or at least visually emphasise team effort as opposed to individual effort. IE: A clear visual difference between Team A held point C the longest, Team B made the most captures from Player A held point C the longest, Player B made the most captures..

Edited by Woobins, December 31 2012 - 12:13 AM.

[Saphyr]

You are right about one thing... being a great player in team games is as much about being there to cover others and valiantly moving out to assist a teammate who overextended him/herself as it is about carrying the teams kill surplus.  I am always appreciative when I beckon for help with "z" in team deathmatches and my plea is answered.  It's one less deficit for the team, and we may even take out the pursuers in the process.  When the team has assists spread throughout the group, I know the team was working together.  That to me is the sign of a solid team.

If there were some way to implement "Scoring ratio" or "Score per minute" stat that could depend on assists, kills, deaths, damage taken and given, EU collected, etc. for each game type, it could more precisely craft the perspective players have about what they are worth in the arena.  Isolating stats between different game types would also help this, though complicating things for the devs to implement.  We should see what clans think distinguishes their best team members in matches... we may have a better idea by the end of the tournament coming up!

Edited by Saphyr, December 23 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[G4M5T3R]

Your suggestion is how scoring works.

The scoreboard is placing you by calculating xp earned by completing objectives not your kda. Yea you earn xp with kills but it's based on how damage you do to the target. KS'n doesn't earn you much. You also earn more xp for getting things like Killstreaks, Savior Kills, Completing an objective
ex: getting kills/assists around the AA, Transferring EU, Capturing a Silo/Defending a Silo.

It's the best player at the top not the best killer. *Granted we often see them as the one with the best kda*

Edited by G4M5T3R, December 23 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Woobins]

While that is how the overall scoreboard placement is determined, the issue I have is the problem about highlighting an individual out of a group rather than the group as a whole, I still think the visual cue of seeing K/D/A displayed next to players, and the placement of players in a leader board still blurs the line between soloing and teamwork and internalizes competition between the team members as well as the opposing team players. Where competition is internalized within a team is where it gives room for people to decide NOT to help team mates for whatever reason.

I used the wrong wording and emphasized benefits as if to say to give something tangible like XP bonuses, re-reading now what I wrote, what I wanted to get at more were the visual identifications of it all, as you explained the tangible bonuses that are already in place actually favor the conducive teamwork we're talking about, ive adjusted my original post to reflect this, thanks for the clarification!

@ Saphyr; Agreed, one thing I really enjoy about Z is that even in pub games you can see at least some of the white dots on the map actually converge to you for assistance. But for clan/tournament games, I think for clans it isn't as prevalent as the participants already at least partially understand that K/D/A isn't what wins matches or are groups of friends that are easily able to avoid this trap. Id imagine these kinds of changes would produce more of an effect at the pub/intermediate level of play which really is where all clans/groups rise from.

Edited by Woobins, December 23 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Boosters actually do absolutely nothing for the scoreboard. Boosters are applied after the ingame score.

Therefore, if a Cupcake is up there, it's because he's good, not because he boosted. A boost will give him double of whatever value is shown on the board.

[Nitris]

DarkPulse, on December 24 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Boosters actually do absolutely nothing for the scoreboard. Boosters are applied after the ingame score.

Therefore, if a Cupcake is up there, it's because he's good, not because he boosted. A boost will give him double of whatever value is shown on the board.

I assume you are only talking about the timed boosters that you buy with MC. Does this also include the EXP boost from the internal(s) on the CRT_

I like the idea of making KDA a much less "in your face" stat on the scoreboard, instead replace it with a generic "score" that is worked out by all number of things such as:
EU dropped off.
Repairing done to friendlies.
Capturing missile silos.
Being on the AA each time a missile is launched (big bonus for being there when a battleship is killed by AA).
Small amount given for "keeping" a missile silo (eg: each time it fires while under your team's control, even if you are not in the cap area).
Assists.
Kills (to a slightly lesser extent than assists).
And so on...

Keep the KDA on the scoreboard, but only show your personal KDA. Other players cannot see yours, and you cannot see others. All anyone should care about is improving their "score" by actually doing objectives, and playing as a team.
Anyone that has played TF2 should understand completely.

I also like the idea of changing the showcase for team based gamemodes so that it simply shows highest score, most assists, most objective based points, etc. Showing kills and deaths just singles people out on stats that shouldn't really be emphasised in a team game.

Edited by Nitris, December 24 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[Kitsunin]

I...don't know. I have to admit, while I always play the objectives, I like to see my K/D. I'm not sure why, but I just enjoy hitting tab and seeing how I stack up in that regard. From a logical standpoint, though, I do agree; teamwork factors should be more prevalent - in missile mode we could have captures and defends on the scoreboard, for instance, and in siege in addition to EU+ and EU- we could have AA cap and def, maybe ship damage.

[kinining]

team work should be the main focus as all modes require teamwork (expect for deathmatch) having K/D ratios is a waste as its a very individual element, remove K/D and make assist more important since teamwork is the main focus and not go out there and be rambo, ppl who go out there and be like rambo r ruining team play

Edited by kinining, December 24 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Woobins]

DarkPulse, on December 24 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Boosters actually do absolutely nothing for the scoreboard. Boosters are applied after the ingame score.

Therefore, if a Cupcake is up there, it's because he's good, not because he boosted. A boost will give him double of whatever value is shown on the board.

Not necessarily, I am referring to the internal upgrade XP boosters available to Cupcake and CR-T which apply before total scores are calculated not the external HC/MC-bought XP boosters which apply after the scores are totalled to which you are referring to.

Kitsunin: At some point we all like to see how we rank up to other players and like most other endeavours whether it involves escapism or work, are concerned by our performance, since multiplayer games took off particularly with FPS esport-types like Counterstrike, competitive elements in mind they continually feature the scoreboard or killboard, its been with us for a very long time. Games are very often designed with the podium in mind. Who came first, second and third, forget the rest.

As much as I would like to say I dont, It would be unreasonable for me to try and claim some moral high ground and say I dont either, I habitually check the score to see my performance despite trying to focus on enjoying the game. I enjoy a game if i'm doing well, and the most prevalent sign given to you to tell you you're 'doing well' is the scoreboard. Its a very important part of any competitive game, but often overlooked, and can serve as a powerful psychological tool to incentivise players into playing a game mode intended by a certain design.

I still believe its important to give signs to a player they are doing well, but directly in a team environment it has to be handled carefully, something as Nitris said with a personal scorecard would indeed help, but I would say go the extra mile and remove it entirely in team games, make team cooperation the only focus and remove as many personal performance distractions and barriers on the path to the 'team goal' as possible.

This is the motivation for starting this thread, this kind of behavior for team work only presents the opportunity for players to divert from the common team goal and instead fulfill their own agendas for few more digits on their scorecards, and its not even the players' fault when there's a scoreboard that everybody is categorized on that tells them 'this is where you stand', we all oblige at some point. Maybe im painting the scoreboard as the grand enemy and all that, but to clarify, i see it as a powerful tool, hence keeping it for games like Deathmatch where its very effective for that game mode.

Edited by Woobins, December 24 2012 - 05:17 AM.

[DarkPulse]

Woobins, on December 24 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Not necessarily, I am referring to the internal upgrade XP boosters available to Cupcake and CR-T which apply before total scores are calculated not the external HC/MC-bought XP boosters which apply after the scores are totalled to which you are referring to.

That much is true, but it only applies to the Vanguard and the CR-T assault, and then the difference is a +20% gain. In other words, if this person would've gotten 2000 XP normally, he will get 2400 in one of those classes.

Of course, for the first day or two after the game came out, it was giving out 200% extra, which, when you combined it with a booster, allowed for hilarious matches of gaining 40,000 XP.

[Woobins]

That is what I was saying, and the fact the scoreboard ranks by total experience points gained, but I see where the misunderstanding came from the boosters statement, thanks for the clarification! Ive adjusted the OP.

Woobins, on December 23 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

From what I've seen; Rank/placement is sorted by Experience points earned during a match, which generally means people with the highest K/D ratios and assists will be seeing the top more often, challenged only by high level CRT/cupcakes with the experience point boosters.

Also I didnt know about the 200% bug, I was wondering why some of my friends shot up in level in only a couple hours of play..

Edited by Woobins, December 24 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Woobins, on December 24 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Also I didnt know about the 200% bug, I was wondering why some of my friends shot up in level in only a couple hours of play..

Yeah, they fixed that one fast, but not before a handful of folks got their stuff up to 25 with it.

[Woobins]

*bump*

As I've mentioned in other threads concerning team (or lackthereof) behavior, if it helps clear things up here is a summary of what I have been debating and it only applies to Team game modes unless mentioned otherwise;

• I reckon the scoreboard and podium style display of players rankings is not conducive to teamwork.

• It internalizes competition between players on the same team that gives reason for said players - whether we like it or not - to deliberately avoid teamwork to pad scores ie: kill stealing.

• It sends mixed messages to new players, community members will try to educate and promote teamwork, while the game's rules make it clear that you are there for all to see on the scoreboard, for good or worse. If you work as a team, the team is likely to win but you are more likely to appear 'worse', if you dont work as a team, the team is likely to lose but you are also more likely to appear 'better'.

• How rewards are given (kills, assists, savior kills, revenge, point defence etc) favor team work, so I dont think the mechanics need to be changed in that regard, but how they are delivered in the scoreboard and final match podium is not clear to new players on what kind of behavior needs to be emphasized in a team game.

• Currently the term 'kills' or any other reward mechanic related to it inherently assume that you're good at killing if you rack up a lot of points here. But does not necessarily mean that player is a team player. There have been multiple suggestions to increase the reward on assists, but this will only shift the problem over to assists and make it the new 'kills'.

• My suggestion would be to visually present the winners as the entire team of mech's rather than the podium model showing only first second and third, or a method that allows everyone on that team to be seen equally. Otherwise what you see is almost like a game within a game, you want to win the team game, but you also want to win a spot on that podium. Remove the podium, remove any room for internal competition to take place, new people will get the message a lot quicker that team work pays and it will make it far easier for the community to foster more cooperative game play.

• For the same reasons, removing the scorecard is also essential. Tab/scorecards should be geared towards showing the teams results as a whole rather than any individual within that team.

• Deathmatch should retain the podium and scorecard as deathmatch is by nature lone-wolf style of gameplay, since there are no teams, everyone competes against each other anyway.

• I understand that this may be quite a broad assumption but stick with me; with psychological barriers like these to new players it prevents more effective testing of game modes that require teamwork and also the use of certain items and weapons that may not necessarily be effective on their own, but with teamwork present a far more challenging (and likely broken for a beta) style of combat for players. For example the beta testing of the repair gun that is in the works can be adversely affected even if it is dual function, its offensive function is likely to be weaker than strapping on a submachine cannon given its ability to repair during fights. As another example, the disparity of arguments over EMP.

• With that said, many mechanics and the way the game is designed after release will be subtly affected by the behavior players have during a team game as community feedback comes in, ie: if you are balancing your game on team game modes, then you need to have players that exhibit cooperative behavior and endeavor to remove or adjust any barriers that would prevent this. Even if its partial, it would be better to just remove it entirely if it is not needed or does not add anything to the game.

In closing, please feel free to give feedback on this or further suggestions to add on!

Edited by Woobins, December 31 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[RazerXIII]

Eh, kill stealing doesnt really work in this game. Points are scored for damage dealt to enemies, which mean the score toppers will be the ones not with the best kda but with the most damage dealt.

In fact someone could get a higher score from an assist than the killer got for scoring that kill.

The only thing that tips it slightly in the balance of ks ing is the fact you get rewards for killstreaks but not for assist streaks.

I also think objective point rewards could be bumped up a bit, and possibly emphasized on the scoreboard more.

[Krellus]

there should be no bonus for killstreaks. someone who is already ahead gets ,,,, bonus xp_ ummmm yeah thats good design

Edited by Krellus, December 28 2012 - 04:23 AM.

[Woobins]

Success should be rewarded, in a deathmatch setting killstreaks are a fine motivator to keep up performance. Although I agree with your opinion, it is also why they added kill streak finisher bonuses for people able to kill these opponents so I think it provides incentive for both the top performer and the 'lower' performers just as nicely.

In a team match setting, I completely agree though. You're not there to rack up kill streaks, you're there to support your team, but be careful not to accidentally incentivise behavior that may promote unwarranted actions like killstealing.

[Gunhed]

There are bonus killstreaks..+25XP for each kill in a row.. I think..

[kiners]

to encourage teamwork just eliminate K/D ratios (current stats makes it egotistic, individualistic and pointless for teamwork as its first in first kill). Make it a K/A ratio, that way teamwork is a premium and must be relied on at all times, in addition change the xp scores so that victory gets more rewarded and promoted via teamwork

[Xapti]

I didn't read everyone's posts entirely, but it seems no one (or few people) mentioned the fact that deaths has little impact on your own score, so there's not much reason for selfish players to try to not to die in team games (aside from the fact that it slows down your potential killing rate by a bit).
edit: I guess kill streaks are a factor though, but even then, I don't think they're particularly significant. At least personally, I know I beat allies' score lots of the time when having far more deaths.

However, for Team DM (only DM, not siege/missile), dying is still important to avoid, since dying will result in the opposing team getting points (through kill/assist, as long as it's not a suicide).

So in summary, it's probably a very good idea to remove the listing of deaths in siege and missile modes, as well as remove the exp bonus for not dying at all in a match (and maybe killstreaks), but keep them for team DM.
With people not being able to see their deaths, they will care less about it, and care more about killing others and/or achieving mission objective.

Lastly, I think they should increase the zone where a player can get bonus exp for defending/attacking a control point. The actual control point radius should remain the same, but there should also be an extended radius for deciding on useful kills for the team. Conversely, there should also maybe be a penalty to exp for players killing enemies who are within 50-100 meters of the team's base, because it makes for unfun game (that or add some sort of automatic long range turret to bases)

In a related sense, players should get extra exp for killing enemies carrying EU for siege mode, because this directly helps their team to win by hindering the enemy. Sure you get standard kill credit, and some free EU which is nice, but I don't think that's good enough (since you'd still get more EXP for only concentrating on returning EU)

Edited by Xapti, December 29 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[kiners]

why don't they just get rid of deaths and make every death -50 or -100xp untill u get back to 0 for all modes in addition to the K/A ratios, that way ppl will still have to be aware of the consequences of dying and still reward teamwork

Edited by kiners, December 29 2012 - 01:48 AM.