24 replies to this topic

[Woobins]

kiners, on December 29 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

why don't they just get rid of deaths and make every death -50 or -100xp untill u get back to 0 for all modes in addition to the K/A ratios, that way ppl will still have to be aware of the consequences of dying and still reward teamwork

I'd be happy to write you a thesis on the difference of punitive and empowering forms of management in practice and its potential with players in a game environment along with recommending a few books but for the sake of keeping it as short as possible;

The version you propose is quite punitive (punishing) - but this is not necessarily a bad thing in the context of games and sports, it would likely just make the game more difficult. An example of a very punishing type of game is Day Z, you are rewarded only by the fact you are allowed to survive in pretty much most cases, but it is still great fun to play despite the difficulty and unpredictability of other players over AI.

Basically if you penalize dying that will encourage the behavior for people to NOT die obviously (we want the Not die bit), it will definitely work in that regard and you might think Yay! (I would too), but it may also result in people being too afraid to even go out for fear of harming their XP gain EVEN IF a pub team 'leader' requires someone to do so if necessary as a result or to an extreme you will very rarely see soloing for strategies' sake (distractions, sneaking off for EU) outside of clan matches except for the most committed pub players or those well ahead of everyone else's scores or not needing any more XP (assuming the podium model is still being used), and for people who draw the shortstick this can be very discouraging, it is punishing in nature and not very rewarding, which increases the difficulty, and it is upto the devs to design and tweak how difficult they want their game in the end.

That, with K/A removed as well should cause people to stick together more and die less, or at least aim to die less. The consequences however I'd imagine would be similar to most dota games where people will simply not commit abilities until the entire team commits resulting in very long protracted skirmishes with not much happening apart from minor HP exchanges and a rise of ambush style strategies. With repair guns coming this may change the dynamic of it and make it pretty interesting to not make the game all about who gets the drop first with ambush strategies. This is also assuming its a pub game, not a proper tourney/clan game. So with that said I think what you propose would certainly be worth trying out!

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On a side note; I would likely object to it in other contexts, but in the context of gaming and Hawken I dont think it'll be a bad thing at all, it'll simply just make the game more difficult in general. Just explaining the potential result you'll get from it, it comes with consequences but it'll certainly have an effect where deaths are concerned, it may even have a quicker effect than the alternatives but may not necessarily have a better result - ie, high risk of people falling into that shortstick category and other unforeseen problems... assuming you dont want that. Otherwise, sweet!

On another note; it'll show that the same frame of thinking actually can be applied and works, part of the developers role is to conceal this process as much as possible - whether they know it or not - so that it doesn't end up looking like a boring game of points exchange.

Hence why I often aim for empowering methods, risk of problems and consequences significantly reduced, it can be harder to implement and see differences initially, but over time, it'll show and it is better in a moral sense. However in games, punitive methods will likely just make the game more difficult for beginners instead.

The more you know!

Edited by Woobins, December 29 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[marshalade]

The issue here is that you're dealing with 2 types of players, the competent and the lost. The competent players will utilize teamwork to win the game. The lost will continue to be lost until someone explains what they're doing wrong, whether on here or in the game. You're not looking at the root cause of the problem.

[Zephyo]

Hm...I refer to League of Legends scoring system: Kills - Deaths + Assists = Score.  So someone with two kills, two deaths, and ten assists has a score of ten.

The best way to encourage teamwork is to encourage the Assist Kill.  If Assist Kills are just as good as Regular Kills, then there is no logical reason why one shouldn't work together with a teammate, as both of you get a point for the kill.  While XP based score is interesting, it emphasizes personal skill and circumstance over teamwork (Revenge Kill, Avenge Kill, Double Kill, etc).  So, naturally, this causes a rift in team based matches, as Assist Kills don't matter as much as Regular Kills.  At the same time, the K/D/A system of LoL isn't exactly a perfect fit for Hawken, as this allows for a negative score - Team Deathmatch would be broken if the game ended with a score of 35/-27, for example.  An interesting idea would be to implement both - a K/D/A system tailored to Hawken for the overall team score, and the XP score for personal honors.  That way, both teamwork and personal skill are encouraged and rewarded.

It's a little thing, but one that alters the perception of how to play the game.  I think it's worth looking into, at any rate.

[Woobins]

marshalade, on December 30 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

The issue here is that you're dealing with 2 types of players, the competent and the lost. The competent players will utilize teamwork to win the game. The lost will continue to be lost until someone explains what they're doing wrong, whether on here or in the game. You're not looking at the root cause of the problem.

Id like to offer a different perspective. When you draw the parallel between survival in reality and a game environment like Hawken I do think I am looking at the root cause of the problem, and even If  I was looking at the wrong area, I feel I am far closer to the root cause of the problem than simply telling other people how to behave on the outset of the problem or covering up the symptoms, and here's why;

• To keep it simple; when we do well, we are rewarded in some way, whether that is success in the form of money, spiritually or personally fulfilling, gaining something whether that is corporeal or otherwise for our efforts and even just simply being able to survive another day.

• In Hawken, our 'virtual' self is rewarded very much in the same way, our currencies are HC and XP, our rewards are points which are translated into our currency, and by Hawken's current rewarding mechanics it emphasizes at least 'more than one' rather than just an individual involved in the reward, ie to get a savior kill a teammate needs to be close to death/being attacked by your target, however the way it is portrayed  is not as clear (just look at the end of match screen or hit tab), it still puts you up on a board for all to see that you appear to be doing very well, very poorly or somewhere in between on a podium and scoreboard that tells you there can only be one individual capable of succeeding by being on the top of the boards which is a reward in the form of personal fulfillment aka not dissimilar from ego stroking. (this is explained further for Zephyo's response below)
  

• The observation that there are only 2 types of players =/= people is not entirely accurate - you could almost say it is more of a difference of clanners and pubbies, but it begs the question who was there to 'teach' the first competent player, or did he/she teach himself_ The only problem with the latter question is that teamwork is not an invented concept that is suddenly adopted out of thin air. We would need to somehow explain the transition (if any), but due to the reasons above, I think it is an inherently flawed observation and trivializes the spectrum of skills and ability for everyone to learn - but you are certainly free to disagree/contest that.

So when you are trying to find the root cause of the issue - why aren't people working together as a team - i think it is far more effective to scrutinize how rewards are delivered and the games principles of player interaction as a result that discourage teamwork behavior and is the 'most accurate' in identifying problems preventing teamwork.

Telling people what to do has far less efficacy especially when it is coming from other players set in the same reward model that are by design poised to compete with you. (re: bias)

Zephyo, on December 30 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Hm...I refer to League of Legends scoring system: Kills - Deaths + Assists = Score.  So someone with two kills, two deaths, and ten assists has a score of ten.

The best way to encourage teamwork is to encourage the Assist Kill.  If Assist Kills are just as good as Regular Kills, then there is no logical reason why one shouldn't work together with a teammate, as both of you get a point for the kill.  While XP based score is interesting, it emphasizes personal skill and circumstance over teamwork (Revenge Kill, Avenge Kill, Double Kill, etc).  So, naturally, this causes a rift in team based matches, as Assist Kills don't matter as much as Regular Kills.  At the same time, the K/D/A system of LoL isn't exactly a perfect fit for Hawken, as this allows for a negative score - Team Deathmatch would be broken if the game ended with a score of 35/-27, for example.  An interesting idea would be to implement both - a K/D/A system tailored to Hawken for the overall team score, and the XP score for personal honors.  That way, both teamwork and personal skill are encouraged and rewarded.

It's a little thing, but one that alters the perception of how to play the game.  I think it's worth looking into, at any rate.

League of legends, like Dota and other scorecard model team games, also suffer from the inherent issues that I am trying to identify for others, but I seriously question anyone's honesty who says they have had regularly good team-work in public games. Clan games sure, its a requirement especially concerning the more popular e-sports because if people dont work together they don't get the sponsorships/prizes  (re: reward) as a team, but public games_ Its about as rare as hens teeth.

Making Assists the same or worth more than Kills is simply 'moving' the problem over to another stat, it is not getting rid of it entirely as Assists simply become the new Kills. (Mentioned this earlier, I know I type a lot so I understand if you didn't see it but quoted below just in case)

Woobins, on December 27 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Currently the term 'kills' or any other reward mechanic related to it inherently assume that you're good at killing if you rack up a lot of points here. But does not necessarily mean that player is a team player. There have been multiple suggestions to increase the reward on assists, but this will only shift the problem over to assists and make it the new 'kills'.

I argue that assists are only perceived to be related to teamwork because the name itself obviously implies 'assisting' someone else, but more importantly that the statistic itself despite being called a 'team work-related' name does not mean whether that person assisted out of team work or out of subterfuge which is why I think it should be dropped; because it still allows room for the wrong behavior to develop whether game designers or community members like it or not. It is not useful - along with the majority of individual stat numbers on the scoreboard/podium in team games. It is also far easier to remove a part of the UI than overhaul the whole games' rewarding mechanics and the RMT/in game currency and player progression balancing from a time/effort perspective.


Having said that, thanks for your contributions!

Edited by Woobins, December 31 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

To make a serious reply on this topic rather than just taunt you in my thread (because i, too can be SRSBSNS !);

Now, i do agree with you that there is a lot of E-peen stroking going on, people just caring about themselves, not wanting to teamplay because 'you noobs would just hold me back herp derp!'.

The point where we disagree is the scoring tab; eliminate the K/D/A ratio and there will likely be issues for the E-sports crowd.
Not that i care much for the E-sports community on a personal level, but they will be an important part to Hawken, if we want to keep the game alive and well funded; at least with the current business model Meteor is using.
Removing the scoring tab will also likely irritate or drive off the folks with the big E-peens; having nothing to brag about on a personal level means they lose interest.
And since these folks are often the ones who will buy the MC to pimp their Mechs and level up faster, we do need them around as well.


I think that, for non-clan players to have more fun games where they don't just get steamrolled (with more being the key word), especially when there's a bunch of clannies on the other side, there simply needs to be a realisation that it's called a TEAM  for a reason.
You don't need a designated 'Arm Chair General' telling everyone what to do, you don't have to constantly play like your life depends on it, you don't need to constantly travel in packs and guard chokepoints, hell, you don't need to be the hero that saves every team mate...

But just a little teamwork can make a boring steamroll match just so much more fun, and a bit more evened out.
I think that if more people would realise that,  step away from their ego's for just the slightest second, and entertain the notion of suggesting strategies and/or trying suggested strategies, there'd be a lot less issues.
Because let's face it : even if one side is full of skilled clannies with fully upgraded mechs, if the other side has a few dedicated level 1 C-RT pilots who work together, the clannies might just be in for a nasty surprise.


Another option may be to add some (MINOR!) extra XP/HC rewards for teamwork, even if just while Open Beta is still in it's early stages; it may just be what convinces people playing the Team gametypes to try a little harder.
Like getting more points for saving a teammate, more points for defending an AA as a team, etc etc.

But this is of course just my speculation on this hotly discussed topic.