36 replies to this topic

[P4THF1ND3R]

I feel like I am at a high disadvantage in my SS, when it comes to being in medium to CQ combat with other mechs, as the sabot is very unreliable on the move and without zooming, and zooming can make combat very awkward in those situations.

So I propose a second zoom be added to the Reaper and SS mech's to give players a choice in which zoom they would prefer in different situations. Plus, it makes sense for a highly advanced sniper mech to have more than one zoom level.

Thoughts_

Edited by P4THF1ND3R, January 19 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[Elix]

If you're a sharpshooter and in CQC, you deserve the death you have been getting.

Sharpshooter is a sniper.

Edit: The Sabot is accurate when scoped in or you are stationary. If you are attempting to hit with the Sabot, on the move, while unscoped, you are only going to hit something by sheer luck. You shouldn't be taking the Sharpshooter into CQC, and if you get jumped, your first port of call should be your SA Hawkins/Slug. If you're really good, you can pause, snap a quick Sabot shot, and then get back on the move immediately (dodging helps).

Edited by Elix, January 19 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[P4THF1ND3R]

Elix, on January 19 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

If you're a sharpshooter and in CQC, you deserve the death you have been getting.

This is completely wrong. There is not one player in the game, who while in a SS, has not had someone come into CQ combat with in a match. Saying they deserve death for something inevitable, is just a childish and poorly thought through response. Every SS player knows this needs to happen. You can't be zooming in while in CQ combat as its no affective at all at its current magnification. And standing still whilst in CQ combat is yet again, not an option. So a lesser zoom level, does indeed need to be added in order for SS users to not be inevitably fuzzy bunny at their next CQ/Medium range encounter.

Being able to use your slug rifle every now and again has nothing to do with it, the fact is the enemy is able to use both their weapons, and you can only use the slug effectively. But if another zoom was added, this would make it a heck of a lot more balanced for the guy in the SS. as he can actually use his sabot now.

Edited by P4THF1ND3R, January 19 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Elix]

If you're in a team gamemode and you're alone and get jumped in CQC, you should probably be concentrating on escaping and finding another vantage point, or have teammate cover. I've been playing since Alpha. Sharpshooter is inferior in close quarters, and that is a deliberate design decision. You're welcome to ask for better help in CQC, but I think you're going to be advised to pilot a different mech if you can't handle Sharpshooter. It is not an easy or straightforward class to play, unlike Assault or Berserker (or Scout or Brawler). I'm not claiming to be some Sabot god on the top of the leaderboards whenever I bring my SS onto the field, I'd like to point out, but you're probably going to hear this from others who are.

In pure free-for-all deathmatch, Sharpshooter is at a distinct disadvantage, and so are C-class mechs (unless piloted by a skilled C-class player or going against complete nubs). That's a consequence of the varying roles between the different mech classes.

Edit: Looking back over the thread, I should clarify my original statement. If you're in CQC voluntarily in a SS, you deserve the flaming wreckage you're about to leave behind, because you should be running either for help from teammates, or running and trying to lead the guy coming after you (you kept an eye on your radar in between Sabot scope-ins, didn't you_) into hostiles (in FFA DM) that'll hopefully pick on him first. Complaining about the fact that the Sabot is difficult to use in CQC indicates to me that you're not running away and instead choosing to stand your ground and engage a close-range mech with your long-range sniper mech.

Edited by Elix, January 19 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[Komodo_Saurian]

Because who cares about ballance, right_

[P4THF1ND3R]

I can handle a SS fine, but having to run away just because someone is close to you is pretty stupid, even if your in a sniper mech. You need to have a chance at killing him without being a wizard with the slug rifle. And that is where the second zoom would come in, it would allow you to 'actually' hit a shot with the sabot, without being on the other side of the map. Plus, I wouldn't mind having a second zoom for other reasons as being able to change between zoom levels due to the target being too big on the scope, or is awkwardly zoomed in, you shouldn't have to relocate just because your not far away enough. There is pretty much no good reason why a second, lesser zoom would change the game, other than make it a little easier on the SS guy when in tough situations.

[Komodo_Saurian]

P4THF1ND3R, on January 19 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

#snip#

So you want all the benefits and no handicaps_

[Elix]

I have a feeling that you're going to like the Reaper, because it's an A-class sniper-type with weapons suited for medium-range instead of long-range.

Also, Sharpshooter is getting a new type of assault rifle as its prestige weapon in the next patch.

[P4THF1ND3R]

Having another zoom will not make the ss or reaper any more powerful. Its giving you the chance to adjust your zoom to your comfort zone. And to your style of playing. Yes i am looking forward to the reaper.

[marshalade]

Elix, on January 19 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

If you're in a team gamemode and you're alone and get jumped in CQC, you should probably be concentrating on escaping and finding another vantage point, or have teammate cover. I've been playing since Alpha. Sharpshooter is inferior in close quarters, and that is a deliberate design decision. You're welcome to ask for better help in CQC, but I think you're going to be advised to pilot a different mech if you can't handle Sharpshooter. It is not an easy or straightforward class to play, unlike Assault or Berserker (or Scout or Brawler). I'm not claiming to be some Sabot god on the top of the leaderboards whenever I bring my SS onto the field, I'd like to point out, but you're probably going to hear this from others who are.

The fact that you've been playing since alpha does not dictate that you know to a T the capabilities of every mech. The ability of a properly optimized SS to burst an A class to half health is incredibly useful, especially in CQC. In the average pub, a proficient SS should escape a 1v1 CQB with 100-150 HP left. Smart use of cover and the ability to quickscope really benefits the SS player, giving the mech itself a lot more playability and potential.

Elix, on January 19 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Edit: Looking back over the thread, I should clarify my original statement. If you're in CQC voluntarily in a SS, you deserve the flaming wreckage you're about to leave behind, because you should be running either for help from teammates, or running and trying to lead the guy coming after you (you kept an eye on your radar in between Sabot scope-ins, didn't you_) into hostiles (in FFA DM) that'll hopefully pick on him first. Complaining about the fact that the Sabot is difficult to use in CQC indicates to me that you're not running away and instead choosing to stand your ground and engage a close-range mech with your long-range sniper mech.

You're correct in saying this.

What I don't like about your statements in this thread however, is you seem to lean toward and encourage the stationary, long-range sniper type of play style for the SS. "Stationary" is, of course, the defining characteristic I'm referring to. The only play style more annoying is the reckless, EMP and REV-GL carrying Grenadier user.

P4THF1ND3R, on January 19 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Having another zoom will not make the ss or reaper any more powerful. Its giving you the chance to adjust your zoom to your comfort zone. And to your style of playing. Yes i am looking forward to the reaper.

You're entirely mistaken about this, it would give a huge advantage to both mechs. The fact that their weapons are more accurate when scoped aside, Elix is right. You should not be rewarded in allowing yourself to get caught up in CQC. You do not deserve a crutch in that situation. Of all the mechs, Sharpshooter relies most on intelligent positioning to stay alive. Why should you be given an option to circumvent that fact_

[G4M5T3R]

I kinda agree with P4THF1ND3R here. Not viable in CQC but a second level of zoom nonetheless. Click MMB once for a shorter zoom, click it again for normal zoom. This is standard in most FPS, and if done right I don't think it would fuzzy bunny the balance.

By normal I mean the level of zoom the sabot is currently at.

Edited by G4M5T3R, January 19 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[P4THF1ND3R]

G4M5T3R, on January 19 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

I kinda agree with P4THF1ND3R here. Not viable in CQC but a second level of zoom nonetheless. Click MMB once for a shorter zoom, click it again for normal zoom. This is standard in most FPS, and if done right I don't think it would fuzzy bunny the balance.

By normal I mean the level of zoom the sabot is currently at.

This is what I am trying to get at, its not going to make the sniper viable in CQ combat at all, but I feel like an alternate zoom for the player's own purposes would be a great addition. I have played many FPS in my time. And I have known many people who favor the first zoom over the more magnified because it gives you more room to see what's happening on the battlefield, without hindering your vision. All I want is the option to change every know and then, even in CQ combat, having to change to any zoom and shoot someone who doesn't require one is not that viable. So I don't see the problem here, for non SS users. Having two level's of zoom is usually the default for long range weapons.

Edited by P4THF1ND3R, January 19 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Elix]

marshalade, on January 19 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Elix, on January 19 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

If you're in a team gamemode and you're alone and get jumped in CQC, you should probably be concentrating on escaping and finding another vantage point, or have teammate cover. I've been playing since Alpha. Sharpshooter is inferior in close quarters, and that is a deliberate design decision. You're welcome to ask for better help in CQC, but I think you're going to be advised to pilot a different mech if you can't handle Sharpshooter. It is not an easy or straightforward class to play, unlike Assault or Berserker (or Scout or Brawler). I'm not claiming to be some Sabot god on the top of the leaderboards whenever I bring my SS onto the field, I'd like to point out, but you're probably going to hear this from others who are.

The fact that you've been playing since alpha does not dictate that you know to a T the capabilities of every mech. The ability of a properly optimized SS to burst an A class to half health is incredibly useful, especially in CQC. In the average pub, a proficient SS should escape a 1v1 CQB with 100-150 HP left. Smart use of cover and the ability to quickscope really benefits the SS player, giving the mech itself a lot more playability and potential.

Sure, I'm no expert in SS, or any particular mech really (I wouldn't put myself in the same tier as BuDeKai/AJK/etc. by any stretch of the imagination). However, OP signed up for Hawken in 2013 and is complaining that SS doesn't do good at CQC. There is certainly room for a SS piloted by a skilled player to demolish a CQC aggressor. I had a very aggravating experience in a match once early in Open Beta where ragequits reduced the teams to 2v5, I was on the 2 side, and I was just getting owned by this CQC-charging SS using the Sabot as a really huge shotgun. I don't know if he was hacking or was just really good, but it didn't matter what mech I took out, he was dancing around me and making holes in my mech.

That's an anecdote, but Sharpshooter can do juuuuust fine in the right hands.

marshalade, on January 19 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Elix, on January 19 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Edit: Looking back over the thread, I should clarify my original statement. If you're in CQC voluntarily in a SS, you deserve the flaming wreckage you're about to leave behind, because you should be running either for help from teammates, or running and trying to lead the guy coming after you (you kept an eye on your radar in between Sabot scope-ins, didn't you_) into hostiles (in FFA DM) that'll hopefully pick on him first. Complaining about the fact that the Sabot is difficult to use in CQC indicates to me that you're not running away and instead choosing to stand your ground and engage a close-range mech with your long-range sniper mech.

You're correct in saying this.

What I don't like about your statements in this thread however, is you seem to lean toward and encourage the stationary, long-range sniper type of play style for the SS. "Stationary" is, of course, the defining characteristic I'm referring to. The only play style more annoying is the reckless, EMP and REV-GL carrying Grenadier user.

I'm encouraging OP to consider that SS should be a more long-range support type of class, firing on targets that are busy with teammates or taking shots from high vantage points. You know, like a sniper.

And, while it's possible to be That Guy and just park your mech in one spot and tempt the idlekick into taking away your XP while you use the mouse and don't touch the keyboard at all, that's the habit of an inexperienced sniper. If you actually want to excel and not get jumped by a gang of mechs coming to your nest with murder in their hearts, you need to stay on the move. Get to a spot, pop some shots off until you run out of targets or you're starting to overstay your welcome in that position, then move to a different one. If you're playing a non-DM game mode, you should be moving with your team in the pack, giving them Sabot support from the back while they engage the front lines.

[Command0Dude]

Plenty of games have two (or more) zoom options. There's absolutely no reason a second zoom option shouldn't be in. This is especially egregious for mid-range combat, since it is often too close to really use the zoom but WAY too far to shoot unscoped, even from stationary.

[marshalade]

I suppose I'm making my judgement based on the current system, in which you get an increase in accuracy and damage. I'd be open to it if those features were absent, but at this point the combination of decreased spread, increased damage output, and a middle zoom level would a be a little too easy to use. That said, the current system doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'd much rather be able to have variable scope power in its place.

[P4THF1ND3R]

It just makes much more sense to have 2 variable scope options with a sniper class. As apposed to the single option, as command0dude mentioned, in those situations it is always the worse of the 2, too far to shoot un scoped, too close to actually use the scope. And that, is where the second zoom will do its duty.

[Azrael39]

that extra button click will get you killed when you are trying to find the right level of zoom.  The best SS players can no scope, or quick scope in CQC.  If you can't and you love your SS then learn how.  The new SS prestige weapon will be a semi auto rifle, maybe you can use that to fight in CQC with.  But no I do not want an extra zoom on my Rifle, I don't want the extra click to slow me down.

[CaptainSoviet]

I won't lie, I like the sound of this, however  I still had to vote it down due to the fact that a SS, as it has been stated is a sniper. In some cqc situations, you can still prevail if you handle it correctly. I feel a secondary lesser zoom would make the SS far to flexible in to many situations.

[Skrill]

Hey guys,
The ss can be used in cqc as is. You just need to get better at quick scoping and hip firing the Sabot. Use corners to your advantage and take some time to figure out the hip fire accuracy of your guns. I usually get first with my ss and have been playing snipers since alpha. It just takes time to develop the skills needed with this mech. Don't expect to be a god off the bat. It's more about strategy and twitch reaction than the other mechs

Edited by Skrill, January 20 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[nihilistic_killer]

Actually, I think the Sabot just needs better no-scoped accuracy. I tried this earlier tonight: even while standing perfectly still and shooting at a wall 15 meters away, the majority of shots go wide. Moving doesn't seem to make it much worse, it just sucks to begin with.

Also, when testing quick-scoped shots against said wall, I discovered that there is a substantial gap between when you start zooming and when your accuracy changes. It's probably about 0.15 or 0.2 seconds, which doesn't sound like much, but it makes things much more difficult than, say, the AWP in CS, which you can no-scope in the blink of an eye.

As others have mentioned, the amount of cover in Haken makes a dedicated "sniper and sniper only" class a waste of time... I say make the SS more appropriate for medium-short range. Make the no-scope Sabot precise enough that it can become the standard way to use the weapon, but keep the scope as a necessary tool for the long distance encounters (which are currently in the minority).

Considering that (no-scope) Sabot damage is 136, cool down is 5 secs, and it generates quite a lot of heat, I don't see this change making the SS OP at all. Yeah, it would allow good SS pilots to make some nasty plays with twitch-shots at medium-close range, but splash still rules CQC.

Edit: I am not suggesting that the Sabot should have 100% no-scope accuracy while moving, or anything close to that. It makes sense to have a modest accuracy penalty for movement. But it makes very little sense to have a huge accuracy penalty simply for not using your scope, even while briefly standing still... In FPS games with 1-hit-kill snipers, that's great for balance, but the Sabot just isn't that kind of GODMODE sniper rifle like the AWP is.

Edited by nihilistic_killer, February 01 2013 - 03:36 AM.