139 replies to this topic

[Culex]

robotokom, on January 28 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

This is on the same topic I think.
Sharpshooter needs to have a better way of suicide other then jumping off something! It is not fair that all other classes have the ability to kill them selves with ease.

Lmao I'm just picturing a SS pointing his sabot at his face and pulling the trigger.

[Neverm0re]

Beemann, on January 28 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

It really doesn't take theorycrafting to see that it's absolutely doable. You can keep the enemy team shut down in terms of gaining kills by just denying them the very chance to get any. With a proper spawn system (IE one that isn`t feeding newly spawned targets to the other team) it`ll be incredibly easy
Also what`s a radar_

If an enemy team was doing this, what is going to stop the opposition from running snipers and destroying them before they get a chance to self-destruct_

[RedVan]

Beemann, on January 28 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

They also don't have to do all of the damage right then and there, people have already admitted to shooting themselves up a bit to use repair to corner peek. This would have the added advantage of allowing you to choose to blow yourself up if you saw someone coming
And let's not even get into voice coms and organized play

WHAT!!!! Y did I not think of this before!
All this time I've just not been fully healing just to save that little bit to corner peek...

From a comp perspective, I'd say giving +1 to the enemy team for suiciding is the way to go. Why_  Usually TDM is played to a certain point value. If you go -1 to the suiciding team, you potentially could have a match that never ends. You would wind up with one team having 0 points, and the other team with -1773739 (that might be an extreme case) or whatever. You could alleviate that with a time limit, but, I've never played TDM comp to a time limit.

The auto kick feature I brought up earlier shouldn't be enabled in comp play IMO, not a fan of stuff like that potentially getting in the way of what could be legit mistakes during comp. better to just reward the enemy team with a kill.

So from that perspective, yes, +1 > -1.

From a pub perspective, I don't think it really matters. But, you want to keep it the same simply for continuity. So, +1.

[andythebomb]

Hey..
Hey guys...

What if when a player on the enemy team gets killed we get a point_

And then nothing else happens.

OK_

[Neverm0re]

andythebomb, on January 28 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Hey..
Hey guys...

What if when a player on the enemy team gets killed we get a point_

And then nothing else happens.

OK_

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

[Beemann]

RedVan, on January 28 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

From a comp perspective, I'd say giving +1 to the enemy team for suiciding is the way to go. Why_  Usually TDM is played to a certain point value. If you go -1 to the suiciding team, you potentially could have a match that never ends. You would wind up with one team having 0 points, and the other team with -1773739 (that might be an extreme case) or whatever. You could alleviate that with a time limit, but, I've never played TDM comp to a time limit.

The auto kick feature I brought up earlier shouldn't be enabled in comp play IMO, not a fan of stuff like that potentially getting in the way of what could be legit mistakes during comp. better to just reward the enemy team with a kill.

So from that perspective, yes, +1 > -1.

From a pub perspective, I don't think it really matters. But, you want to keep it the same simply for continuity. So, +1.

Time limits work rather well actually. Quake uses them for Duels (each map is 10 minutes, finals are always best of 3 with player-picked maps from what I've seen of Q3/Qlive/Q4) and they prevent the 7 hour slog that RA turned into (2 people camping and occasionally peeking out to fire off a shot or two is boring)
What you want, ultimately, is to force some action in there

As well, I don't think the ban scenario existing would be an issue in comp. In fact, suicide exploitation would be MORE prevalent there, as there's more on the line (generally epeen). Additionally, if you're making that many "mistakes" then you've basically lost already
And without that banning option you're actually making organized TDM worse if you have damage dependent +1 instead of universal -1.
Also you could just say that one team loses if they go below a certain negative number, because anyone who manages that has clearly lost anyway

[RedVan]

Beemann, on January 28 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

RedVan, on January 28 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

From a comp perspective, I'd say giving +1 to the enemy team for suiciding is the way to go. Why_  Usually TDM is played to a certain point value. If you go -1 to the suiciding team, you potentially could have a match that never ends. You would wind up with one team having 0 points, and the other team with -1773739 (that might be an extreme case) or whatever. You could alleviate that with a time limit, but, I've never played TDM comp to a time limit.

The auto kick feature I brought up earlier shouldn't be enabled in comp play IMO, not a fan of stuff like that potentially getting in the way of what could be legit mistakes during comp. better to just reward the enemy team with a kill.

So from that perspective, yes, +1 > -1.

From a pub perspective, I don't think it really matters. But, you want to keep it the same simply for continuity. So, +1.

Time limits work rather well actually. Quake uses them for Duels (each map is 10 minutes, finals are always best of 3 with player-picked maps from what I've seen of Q3/Qlive/Q4) and they prevent the 7 hour slog that RA turned into (2 people camping and occasionally peeking out to fire off a shot or two is boring)
What you want, ultimately, is to force some action in there

As well, I don't think the ban scenario existing would be an issue in comp. In fact, suicide exploitation would be MORE prevalent there, as there's more on the line (generally epeen). Additionally, if you're making that many "mistakes" then you've basically lost already
And without that banning option you're actually making organized TDM worse if you have damage dependent +1 instead of universal -1.
Also you could just say that one team loses if they go below a certain negative number, because anyone who manages that has clearly lost anyway

Damage dependent +1_  A single bullet within the prior X min is all that would be needed for a player to get credited a kill if the enemy decides to suicide.  If they're suiciding before anyone ever does damage to them, then....  well they might do that in PUBs, but if a comp player is that stupid, I dont even know...

I guess I wouldn't be opposed to an auto kick for suicide in comp though, nor a time limit.  I'm pretty flexible.

As for PUBs though, if you do a universal -1, then people can suicide w/o ever taking damage, and cause their team -1.  = grief

If damage dependent (X amount of damage (as little as one bullet) within the past Y time (say 5 min)) it will count as a +1 to other team (kill reward to last player to do damage) if a player suicides.  However, if in this case a player decides to suicide w/o ever taking damage, it does not hurt his team. =!grief


As a side note, my epeen tells me not to play like a little kitty cat and suicide to prevent a kill.  I would hope others epeens would encourage them to win fair and square w/o noob tactics like suiciding to prevent kills.  But, I'm sure there are people out there with crooked epeens

[Beemann]

...you realize that you can win the instant you have a 1 point lead by suiciding every time you spawn right_
And some people look at it like "if it's in the game, it's fair". Your idea of what is fair or proper means nothing to them unless the gameplay and rules reflect it

And you already made a suggestion that fixes suicide spam griefing, I'm not sure why we're disregarding that at this point

[Neverm0re]

Again, I make this suggestion: If someone in a team game kills themselves, give the enemy team a kill. If someone on the other team did damage to the enemy before he suicided, add a kill to his score. If multiple people did damage to the enemy before he killed himself then give the kill to the one who did the most damage and give the assist to everyone else. I don't see how that doesn't work.

[RedVan]

Beemann, on January 28 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

...you realize that you can win the instant you have a 1 point lead by suiciding every time you spawn right_
And some people look at it like "if it's in the game, it's fair". Your idea of what is fair or proper means nothing to them unless the gameplay and rules reflect it

And you already made a suggestion that fixes suicide spam griefing, I'm not sure why we're disregarding that at this point

I'm not disregarding it at all. I still say it should be there. But that doesn't change the fact it should still be discussed whether it ends up being -1 or +1.

Even if a team took a lead in a game and all decided to start suiciding to prevent the +1, it would only take the losing team a very simple strat of splitting into 2-3 man groups and circling the map to spray a single bullet on someone before they die. Poof, more points.

Besides, this is extremely theoretical. In all my years of TDM comp I have never seen any team do this. Hell, those that suicide to prevent kills are few and far between already.

Do you deny that in PUBs a -1 would allow griefing whereas a damage dependent +1 wouldn't, as I stated in my last post_  It's possible I'm wrong, I could be missing some aspect...

Edited by RedVan, January 29 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Owngasm]

Problem with -1 penalty is people could switch sides to suicide to take opposing teams score away. Mind you, thats slightly better then the current system (because they could only do that if teams are uneven) but still easily exploitable.

Easiest solution, and a large respawn time after suicides. To make it more noobie friendly, you could have it start small and get progressively bigger after each suicide. This encourages players to try to avoid making mistakes that kill them. In Deathmatch, being out for 10-15 seconds could be a missed kill. In TDM it means your team is now down one man for a considerable time, making it easier for the other team to rack up some kills, like a HAWKEN powerplay!

[RentAKnight]

Neverm0re, on January 29 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Again, I make this suggestion: If someone in a team game kills themselves, give the enemy team a kill. If someone on the other team did damage to the enemy before he suicided, add a kill to his score. If multiple people did damage to the enemy before he killed himself then give the kill to the one who did the most damage and give the assist to everyone else. I don't see how that doesn't work.

This sounds pretty good.  Takes care of XP in every situation as well.

I guess you could still easily grief your team by feeding self suicide points.

[Neverm0re]

RentAKnight, on January 29 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Neverm0re, on January 29 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Again, I make this suggestion: If someone in a team game kills themselves, give the enemy team a kill. If someone on the other team did damage to the enemy before he suicided, add a kill to his score. If multiple people did damage to the enemy before he killed himself then give the kill to the one who did the most damage and give the assist to everyone else. I don't see how that doesn't work.

This sounds pretty good.  Takes care of XP in every situation as well.

I guess you could still easily grief your team by feeding self suicide points.

There will never be a system where someone can't grief their own team in some way. Even in a system where suicide is impossible, someone could constantly rush enemy groups and never fire a shot to feed the opposing team. The best that will ever be done is to create a system that discourages the behavior, rather than being indifferent like what we have now.

[Beemann]

RedVan, on January 29 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'm not disregarding it at all. I still say it should be there. But that doesn't change the fact it should still be discussed whether it ends up being -1 or +1.

Even if a team took a lead in a game and all decided to start suiciding to prevent the +1, it would only take the losing team a very simple strat of splitting into 2-3 man groups and circling the map to spray a single bullet on someone before they die. Poof, more points.

Besides, this is extremely theoretical. In all my years of TDM comp I have never seen any team do this. Hell, those that suicide to prevent kills are few and far between already.

Do you deny that in PUBs a -1 would allow griefing whereas a damage dependent +1 wouldn't, as I stated in my last post_  It's possible I'm wrong, I could be missing some aspect...

1. It actually doesn't matter either way. -1 is just easier to deal with (one player's score goes down, vs the other team mysteriously having points)
2. You`re assuming that spreading out LESS is going to make it work for you_ Furthermore, with a proper spawn system (spawn furthest, not random "please kill me" spawns) this wont work
3. Have you seen a 7 hour elimination match_ Cuz it's happened
Past experience != what will continue to happen
4. Both would allow griefing, in different ways. I mean... ultimately we're ignoring the fact that you can just run up to an enemy, get shot, and help them kill you, and your team STILL most likely wont be able to make up for that in a properly balanced match

Neverm0re, on January 29 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Again, I make this suggestion: If someone in a team game kills themselves, give the enemy team a kill. If someone on the other team did damage to the enemy before he suicided, add a kill to his score. If multiple people did damage to the enemy before he killed himself then give the kill to the one who did the most damage and give the assist to everyone else. I don't see how that doesn't work.

This is the same thing as my suggestion, only with a +1 instead

[RentAKnight]

Beemann, on January 29 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Neverm0re, on January 29 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Again, I make this suggestion: If someone in a team game kills themselves, give the enemy team a kill. If someone on the other team did damage to the enemy before he suicided, add a kill to his score. If multiple people did damage to the enemy before he killed himself then give the kill to the one who did the most damage and give the assist to everyone else. I don't see how that doesn't work.

This is the same thing as my suggestion, only with a +1 instead

How do you differentiate whether the suicide was caused by another player or not, using -1_

With +1's it either goes to the team's score, or to a player's score.  Same with XP.  

-1's you can't distinguish between an enemy induced suicide and a completely self suicide.

If you looked at the scoreboard and the total kills is more than the combined kills of each player, you know a player on the other team killed themselves w/o taking any damage from an enemy.

If you saw a scoreboard of negatives, you wouldn't know where the negatives came from.

[Beemann]

RentAKnight, on January 29 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

How do you differentiate whether the suicide was caused by another player or not, using -1_

With +1's it either goes to the team's score, or to a player's score.  Same with XP.  

-1's you can't distinguish between an enemy induced suicide and a completely self suicide.

If you looked at the scoreboard and the total kills is more than the combined kills of each player, you know a player on the other team killed themselves w/o taking any damage from an enemy.

If you saw a scoreboard of negatives, you wouldn't know where the negatives came from.

-1 point is a suicide. It doesn't matter what caused the suicide
+1 is a kill , and is always a kill
BAM! clarity!
And you can award XP for it without giving the other team a point

[RentAKnight]

Beemann, on January 29 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

RentAKnight, on January 29 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

How do you differentiate whether the suicide was caused by another player or not, using -1_

With +1's it either goes to the team's score, or to a player's score.  Same with XP.  

-1's you can't distinguish between an enemy induced suicide and a completely self suicide.

If you looked at the scoreboard and the total kills is more than the combined kills of each player, you know a player on the other team killed themselves w/o taking any damage from an enemy.

If you saw a scoreboard of negatives, you wouldn't know where the negatives came from.

-1 point is a suicide. It doesn't matter what caused the suicide
+1 is a kill , and is always a kill
BAM! clarity!
And you can award XP for it without giving the other team a point

as long as the kill streak and kill streak end XP bonus's are still awarded.

[RedVan]

Beemann, on January 29 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

RedVan, on January 29 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'm not disregarding it at all. I still say it should be there. But that doesn't change the fact it should still be discussed whether it ends up being -1 or +1.

Even if a team took a lead in a game and all decided to start suiciding to prevent the +1, it would only take the losing team a very simple strat of splitting into 2-3 man groups and circling the map to spray a single bullet on someone before they die. Poof, more points.

Besides, this is extremely theoretical. In all my years of TDM comp I have never seen any team do this. Hell, those that suicide to prevent kills are few and far between already.

Do you deny that in PUBs a -1 would allow griefing whereas a damage dependent +1 wouldn't, as I stated in my last post_  It's possible I'm wrong, I could be missing some aspect...

1. It actually doesn't matter either way. -1 is just easier to deal with (one player's score goes down, vs the other team mysteriously having points)
2. You`re assuming that spreading out LESS is going to make it work for you_ Furthermore, with a proper spawn system (spawn furthest, not random "please kill me" spawns) this wont work
3. Have you seen a 7 hour elimination match_ Cuz it's happened
Past experience != what will continue to happen
4. Both would allow griefing, in different ways. I mean... ultimately we're ignoring the fact that you can just run up to an enemy, get shot, and help them kill you, and your team STILL most likely wont be able to make up for that in a properly balanced match

Well, either way I guess, so long as they put in an auto kick for suicide and proper TDM spawns

[chrissphinx]

seeing more and more players abuse this in TDM. If I take my opponent down to 20 health and they kill themselves, that's still my kill. Not to mention face-hugging 1 v 1 is just about who can pull the tow first because then it's a free point while the enemy team gets nothing.

Obviously shouldn't work like this, fix it

[Saphyr]

Just thought I'd add a point of fact for the discussion to establish one disadvantage of suicide in TDM.  I have participated in a TDM match that arrived at a tie in the end (it was a remarkable game).  The outcome was apparently decided by total deaths.  A few suicides on our side made us the losers of the match by excess deaths.  So, currently, in the event of a tie, the team with more suicides loses

I have no established opinion to share on suicides.  As you were.