96 replies to this topic

[dEd101]

Intro:
It was suggested I put this in a new topic for discussion.

Talk has been going around that various A class mech (most commonly the Scout) are OP because of their weapon combinations.

I have a suggestion:
Balance weapon damage according to the mech class using it. This would allow weapons to be shared across classes (as they are now).

For example the flak scout will not pack the same punch as the flak brawler. This means that advantages in movement are balanced by having damage reduction.

An example would be:
C Class deals 100% of listed damage
B Class deals 95% of listed damage
A Class deals 90% of listed damage

Obviously these numbers could be adjusted as needed, these are just some starting values to get the ball rolling.

This would allow pilots who have grown accustomed to certain mech loadouts not having to adjust because someone complained that a flak cannon on an A class is OP and the devs taking it away.

This should be fairly simple to implement code wise (I think) and could even be applied on a per weapon basis should the broad class based solution not be enough.

What do you think_

P.S: please don't use this thread as an avenue to express your frustrations about how 'OP' this or that is. Do you like this solution or do you have a better idea_



TL;DR:

Balance weapons according to mech class. When using the same weapons C class deals more damage than B class and B class deals more damage the A class.

Don't whine about things being OP and rather discuss solutions.

New Ideas:

Juodvarnis, on February 01 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

Even though i really like the idea, i feel that raw damage isn't what should be affected.

In my opinion, either accuracy or heat generation should be affected. Since a heavier mech is a more stable firing platform and/or are capable of withstanding higher amount of heat, due to having larger radiators.

AND

TwiceDead, on February 01 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Instead of tinkering with weapons, just add some damage resistance to each individual class.

A-Classes are light, mobile, small, it's safe to assume their plating is not top-notch.
B-Classes are average, average, and average. It's safe to assume their plating is average, add some damage resistance for that.
C-Classes are fat, slow, and huge... I think it is very safe to assume that like their fat bodies, their plating is equally fat. Add even more damage resistance for that.

A-Class: 0% Damage resistance.
B-Class: 2.5-5% Damage Resistance.
C-Class: 10-12.5% Damage Resistance.

It's an a lot easier job to do than to tinker into every weapon on every class just to tune down the damage.

Added to poll.

Edited by dEd101, February 01 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[Juodvarnis]

Even though i really like the idea, i feel that raw damage isn't what should be affected.

In my opinion, either accuracy or heat generation should be affected. Since a heavier mech is a more stable firing platform and/or are capable of withstanding higher amount of heat, due to having larger radiators.

Edited by Juodvarnis, February 01 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[deidarall]

I also always thought that a heavy mech while slower should carry more fuel due to it's size.... I think heat generation would be good...

Another suggestion is to make the HP orb % based to the person that dropped it.. This would stop the quick fixing light insanity some as it is the only mech able to pop out with no HP then pop in with 50%

[dEd101]

Juodvarnis, on February 01 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

Even though i really like the idea, i feel that raw damage isn't what should be affected.

In my opinion, either accuracy or heat generation should be affected. Since a heavier mech is a more stable firing platform and/or are capable of withstanding higher amount of heat, due to having larger radiators.

That makes sense. I'm adding it to the poll

[Teljaxx]

I think making different versions of weapons for different mechs would work well. It kind of looks like they may be planning on doing something like this already, Since the Reaper comes with a Sabot Rifle, but it is not the same Sabot as on the Sharpshooter. Making different versions of the each weapon would allow better balancing than trying to make each one even across all classes.

They could do something like making a "light" TOW for the Scout, and a "heavy" TOW for the Brawler. This would make it easy to explain why each weapon works slightly different, instead of basically saying "Just because," and it would also allow for more precise stat changes than if each class just had a blanket difference for all weapons. Making the same change to all weapons may not balance all of them properly. -10% damage for A-Class mechs' weapons may work with the TOW, but not the Grenade Launcher, or vice versa.

Edited by Teljaxx, February 01 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Gree]

Though it's a good idea, it doesn't seems right to give different weapon damage for each class :/

[Gree]

Juodvarnis, on February 01 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

Even though i really like the idea, i feel that raw damage isn't what should be affected.

In my opinion, either accuracy or heat generation should be affected. Since a heavier mech is a more stable firing platform and/or are capable of withstanding higher amount of heat, due to having larger radiators.

I'm with you. The weapons are independent on accuraccy, damage, effective range, and fire rate. But heat generation should depend on the mech.
But it's a silly thing, it doesn't need to be added

[TwiceDead]

Instead of tinkering with weapons, just add some damage resistance to each individual class.

A-Classes are light, mobile, small, it's safe to assume their plating is not top-notch.
B-Classes are average, average, and average. It's safe to assume their plating is average, add some damage resistance for that.
C-Classes are fat, slow, and huge... I think it is very safe to assume that like their fat bodies, their plating is equally fat. Add even more damage resistance for that.

A-Class: 0% Damage resistance.
B-Class: 2.5-5% Damage Resistance.
C-Class: 10-12.5% Damage Resistance.

It's an a lot easier job to do than to tinker into every weapon on every class just to tune down the damage.

Juodvarnis, on February 01 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

Even though i really like the idea, i feel that raw damage isn't what should be affected.

In my opinion, either accuracy or heat generation should be affected. Since a heavier mech is a more stable firing platform and/or are capable of withstanding higher amount of heat, due to having larger radiators.

I don't see this saving any C-Classes tbh... Most smart players use burst weapons (Heat+Gren/ToW, Slug+Sabot, Flak+ToW, ETC) Which you only fire once every peek. You don't get a good look on your opponent before you've already fired away and dashed behind cover giving you plenty of time to recover heat and accuracy.

Edited by TwiceDead, February 01 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[TwiceDead]

fuzzy bunny doubleposts.

Edited by TwiceDead, February 01 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Owngasm]

So much win in this post. Favorite suggestion is damage resistance, as it would be the easiest to implement. However, I'd be down for any suggestion if it meant evening the playing field.

[Juodvarnis]

TwiceDead, on February 01 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

-snip-

Hmmm, i never thought about adding Damage resistance.

Honestly i think it'd be great. I mean this feature is already in the game in optimizations and internals, so making them mech class specific shouldn't be too hard.

[DeVact]

Damage resistance for each weapon individually or overall_ I'm asking because this solution sounds a lot like a straight armor buff to me...

[TwiceDead]

Damage resistance for each class, not weapons.

Some math_

Sabot Scoped Damage: 170

vs A-Class with no Damage Resistance = 170 damage, 100% of the weapon's damage per shot.
vs B-Class with 5% DR = 170 Damage - 8.5 Damage = 161 Damage, 95% of the weapon's damage per shot.
Vs C-Class with 10% DR = 170 Damage - 17 Damage = 153 Damage, 90% of the weapon's damage per shot.

[Juodvarnis]

TwiceDead, on February 01 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Damage resistance for each class, not weapons.

Some math_

Sabot Scoped Damage: 170

vs A-Class with no Damage Resistance = 170 damage, 100% of the weapon's damage per shot.
vs B-Class with 5% DR = 170 Damage - 8.5 Damage = 161 Damage, 95% of the weapon's damage per shot.
Vs C-Class with 10% DR = 170 Damage - 17 Damage = 153 Damage, 90% of the weapon's damage per shot.

But ehm, wouldn't simply increasing health by 5% and 10% do the EXACT same thing_

[Dreizehn]

I remember this being brought up before, and I'm really not a fan of seemingly arbitrary stat changes.

Considering we got weapon variants like the KE-Sabot and the Hawkins-RPR... I think a more flexible approach could be taken to balance things.

[TwiceDead]

It would. Kinda. Well not really, yet yes. Yet no. I am inclined to land at yes, yet part of me says no.

All DR really does is it makes you die slower, the total amount of damage you receive is reduced without affecting your armor pool.

While you could increase your armor pool, you would technically get the same result, BUT!
Increasing armor pool increases flat numbers, easily affected by % numbers like internals or optimizations. It would also force you to spend more time repairing, and it wouldn't really save you once your HP falls bellow 675, as you have the same pool as a B-Class at that point with no resistances to save you, while damage resistance would follow you all the way down to zero.

Numbers bellow, skip if you don't like em'.

Current C-Class is what_ 850 HP_
Add 3.5%, from optimizations.  29.75 rounded up to 30+ Armor. 880.

Now add the buff of 10% Armor(instead of resistance).
Add 10%, 85 points, 935.
This is the new armor pool for the C-Class.
Now add the 3.5% from optimizations again, it's no longer 29.75 points increase, it's 32.72, rounded up to 33+ Armor. Total: 968.

Hmm... I forgot the point I tried to make with these numbers, fuzzy bunny.

EDIT:
Point!

If your C-Class HP falls bellow 675(One ToW to an unaware opponent) you are basically a B-Class just fatter and slower and an easier target. Damage resistance makes the difference here, in that you are not a B-Class, your a a C-Class and take less damage than a B-Class, so your opponents needs to keep that in mind.

Edited by TwiceDead, February 01 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[DeVact]

TwiceDead, on February 01 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

All DR really does is it makes you die slower, the total amount of damage you receive is reduced without affecting your armor pool.

Ok, but if we were to change the armor pool instead of your complicated and hard to understand solution that effectively does nothing else than generate "theoretical HP", the result would be the same

[TwiceDead]

No, it would not be the same. A larger HP pool would affect for instance:

Gains from Internals/optimizations (still miniscule)
Time to Repair

As said above, once your HP falls bellow 675, you're really nothing but a fat, slow, huge target B-Class, and let's be honest all it takes for a C-Class to fall to 600-700ish is a ToW when he's not looking. Suddenly the playing field is even... Except it's not. In terms of HP it might be even, but C-Classes are still fatter, slower, bigger targets that soak up damage from every possible angle.

DR still kicks in even after you've fallen bellow 675, sure you may have taken 85 points extra if you increase the pool, but in most sustained fights you will fight with your HP between 700-185, and the time you spend fighting in these zones is what's key here. You may go a long stretch before you decide to repair, and DR helps extend that time.

Edited by TwiceDead, February 01 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[dEd101]

TwiceDead, on February 01 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Instead of tinkering with weapons, just add some damage resistance to each individual class.

A-Classes are light, mobile, small, it's safe to assume their plating is not top-notch.
B-Classes are average, average, and average. It's safe to assume their plating is average, add some damage resistance for that.
C-Classes are fat, slow, and huge... I think it is very safe to assume that like their fat bodies, their plating is equally fat. Add even more damage resistance for that.

A-Class: 0% Damage resistance.
B-Class: 2.5-5% Damage Resistance.
C-Class: 10-12.5% Damage Resistance.

It's an a lot easier job to do than to tinker into every weapon on every class just to tune down the damage.

Also an excellent idea. I'm glad that there are actually some decent ideas and discussions coming out of this.

[Hekatonkheires]

TwiceDead, on February 01 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

It would. Kinda. Well not really, yet yes. Yet no. I am inclined to land at yes, yet part of me says no.

All DR really does is it makes you die slower, the total amount of damage you receive is reduced without affecting your armor pool.

While you could increase your armor pool, you would technically get the same result, BUT!
Increasing armor pool increases flat numbers, easily affected by % numbers like internals or optimizations. It would also force you to spend more time repairing, and it wouldn't really save you once your HP falls bellow 675, as you have the same pool as a B-Class at that point with no resistances to save you, while damage resistance would follow you all the way down to zero.

Numbers bellow, skip if you don't like em'.

Current C-Class is what_ 850 HP_
Add 3.5%, from optimizations.  29.75 rounded up to 30+ Armor. 880.

Now add the buff of 10% Armor(instead of resistance).
Add 10%, 85 points, 935.
This is the new armor pool for the C-Class.
Now add the 3.5% from optimizations again, it's no longer 29.75 points increase, it's 32.72, rounded up to 33+ Armor. Total: 968.

Hmm... I forgot the point I tried to make with these numbers, fuzzy bunny.

EDIT:
Point!

If your C-Class HP falls bellow 675(One ToW to an unaware opponent) you are basically a B-Class just fatter and slower and an easier target. Damage resistance makes the difference here, in that you are not a B-Class, your a a C-Class and take less damage than a B-Class, so your opponents needs to keep that in mind.

It is the same, it will take more punishement to reduce 935 HP heavy to 675, tha reducing the 850 HP one to that level. At last the two options are pretty similar.

Yeah, there will be differences on the internals and repairs, but nothing too extreme.