36 replies to this topic

[Houruck]

Disrupted, on February 20 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

I can only imagine the terror imposed by an army of Sharpshooters, all perched neatly at high ground.

Those Sharpshooters are not playing it well. I think the majority of the respondents play it casual and that is why I am tilting at windmills.

MojoNixon:



I do not use EMP, Rev-GL and such things because they are banned on a consensual basis in the competitive scene. And usually there is a class limit too. Watch the Post-Apocalypse tourney videos.

ReachH, on February 20 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

Trying to win in a brawler is not exactly the best showcase of how OP a team of grens and rocketeers are.

This is a Bruiser in the screenshot.

Edited by Houruck, February 20 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[MojoNixon]

I'm not about to get into a contest on who can be more smug then the other, or point out that you can check profile creation times.  We're not talking about some stripped down no abilities speed-run competitive play.  We are talking about the game world as it is right now through match making/clan type gameplay.  It's like strange little game lobbyists that think something should be omitted or changed with "their" game purely based on their stubborn first reaction to a game feature.

[KyRoS]

Rocket powa! I'm loving the Rocketeer Very fun and a nice change of pace. In the screenshot you show, try hitting them from the jump pads below. It's much harder as a rocketeer to deal with that than it is on level ground coming from their base.

[Beemann]

The class limit was 1 round only (the second set of matches, both the finals and initial matches where anything goes)
It's worth noting as well that a class limit intentionally hides discrepancies between class effectiveness levels, and that this isn't necessarily a good thing

@mojonixon
We banned only the revgl and emp. We wanted to make sure that we only banned extreme outliers, and those got picked because of trends we had seen in scrims from throughout closed beta, and because of the huge mathematical discrepancy between those devices and their equivalents
It is our opinion, supported by testing and observed trends, that removing these items caused a higher caliber of play, and in the Rev GL's case, a greater level of weapon and composition variety
additionally
A: most comp games do actually have restrictions for comp play
And
B: Hugs has stated that the game is not currently ready for competitive play (which ultimately means that any attempt at comp play is logically going to include a lot of "damage control" rules aimed at stomping out particularly unfair mechanics and reducing the number of exploits)

[MojoNixon]

Yes but it is still a version of the game that you and a few clan mates play based off of your views on those two items.  The mass majority of people will be doing the regular game through matchmaking or clans.  Who knows if the emp or rev-l are even considered omitted when sponsored competition occurs.  I know you have specific math that is irreproachable but in a game based more on getting the jump on the opponent a few items like these would help in the OP's AA holding situation.  It lends me to believe those items have a place in the game.  More diversity not less, long live auxiliary items.

[Houruck]

Beemann, on February 20 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

The class limit was 1 round only (the second set of matches, both the finals and initial matches where anything goes)
It's worth noting as well that a class limit intentionally hides discrepancies between class effectiveness levels, and that this isn't necessarily a good thing

The friendly skirmishes organised by OWL also uses class limit rules.

[RentAKnight]

Houruck, on February 20 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Beemann, on February 20 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

The class limit was 1 round only (the second set of matches, both the finals and initial matches where anything goes)
It's worth noting as well that a class limit intentionally hides discrepancies between class effectiveness levels, and that this isn't necessarily a good thing

The friendly skirmishes organised by OWL also uses class limit rules.

Did you try any organized gameplay without class limits before implementing your class limit rule_  Did you theorycraft that having class limits is the right way to go_  I'm genuinely interested as a lot of other game communities put a lot of faith and value into theorycrafting.

Does it have a place in hawken_

[Akaon]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on February 19 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Meh, nothing that 3 well placed EMP's wont fix.
If i'm in my Berserker and i see a C class, i ready the EMP, dodge around them, light them up with the TOW and Vulcan, dodge away for cooldown (make them think i'm running) then as they turn the corner, EMP, F and then Spam bursts of Vulcan + more TOW.
Most of them die before they even realise it's a trap, some just give up, stand there and accept their fate, others try to dodge and/or try to run...
But in the end, they all succumb.

There is one exception to this, but that guy is OP

I always wonder what you're trying to do when i kill you, now i know your secrets .

(I always thought it was some kind of ritual berserker mating dance, that ends in me eating its corpse)

[Houruck]

RentAKnight, on February 20 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Did you try any organized gameplay without class limits before implementing your class limit rule_

I have to say no, because we (BSB-EU) did not participate in the skirmish yet. But this scenario (All-Star Rocketeer team) is more unlikely in an organised game.

However I have experienced many Scout stacked organised teams (Russians especially love these) crush pugs. I am really not forcing this "rule", just brought up the topic.

RentAKnight, on February 20 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Did you theorycraft that having class limits is the right way to go_  I'm genuinely interested as a lot of other game communities put a lot of faith and value into theorycrafting.

Steel Killers are really into numbers. Maybe more of them should comment on this thread.

RentAKnight, on February 20 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Does it have a place in hawken_

Maybe as an option on dedicated servers (only daydreaming about it). Good point. Maybe restricting numbers is not the way to go. I am genuinely interested in the opinions of others.

[Beemann]

MojoNixon, on February 20 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Yes but it is still a version of the game that you and a few clan mates play based off of your views on those two items.  The mass majority of people will be doing the regular game through matchmaking or clans.  Who knows if the emp or rev-l are even considered omitted when sponsored competition occurs.  I know you have specific math that is irreproachable but in a game based more on getting the jump on the opponent a few items like these would help in the OP's AA holding situation.  It lends me to believe those items have a place in the game.  More diversity not less, long live auxiliary items.

The AA itself isn't balanced. It's heavily weighted towards CQC classes and AOE spam in particular, and it reduces (and in some cases, negates) the potential contribution of long range classes. If an item completely breaks that, imagine what it would do if used elsewhere, or if used by the defending team

Additionally, on the topic of diversity (and I stated this before), the problem is that allowing the RevGL and EMP would have REDUCED diversity. You would have only ever seen giant green flashes, and every team that wanted to compete would have had to include 2 RevGL Grenadiers. Even ignoring the huge stunlock capability of the RevGL (as it was, and still is, the biggest offender when it comes to chaining staggers on a target) you're still dealing with a level of spam and damage output that really isn't matched by other weapons, particularly when dealing with chokepoints (which Origin is full of)

We also didn't play on Bazaar due to the extremely weighted nature of the map. Do you consider THAT to be a bad decision as well, or do you accept that certain imbalanced scenarios should be excluded if it's an obvious issue that is easy to fix_

And again, it's not as if Adhesive feels that the game in its current state is a comp-viable game. Hugs has stated multiple times that they don't feel that's the case

[MojoNixon]

I'm just saying there are a plethora of people out there who have no problem with things like minute difference in base positioning on bazaar, if the rev was so easy and appealing you would see many more grenadiers but it's simply not the case, I understand things are skewed in the public/MM system currently, but that isn't to say self-restricted clan based game play doesn't have its own series of imbalances.  I'd like to see a game balanced around all its features, which is why entering that class/ability restricted league matches into the argument is irrelevant.

[Giga_V_2]

C_Andrade, on February 19 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

i love my rockeeter

same here!

[TheVulong]

1. Pick a Brawler
2. Say your team to do the same
3. Everyone go inside the AA
4. Activate Turret mode
5. ___
6. PROFIT

[Akaon]

TheVulong, on March 12 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

1. Pick a Brawler
2. Say your team to do the same
3. Everyone go inside the AA
4. Activate Turret mode
5. ___
6. PROFIT

Team grenadier would like to disagree.

[TheVulong]

Quote

Team grenadier would like to disagree.

Maybe... Not sure. But the point is that the turret-Brawler inside the AA is a pain in the azz.

[Taw_Archangel]

I actually thought he was talking about me at first. EoC rocketeer is really strong right now. On Seige mode, holding the AA it is just something sick nasty. I love it so much. Once the EoC is nerfed and the Hellfires nerfed, then it will go back to being an underpowered mech. I honestly hope the tone it down slightly, the EoC direct fire is really strong atm, and hellfires do just a tad to much damage. A slight decrease won't break the game.

[dEd101]

I'm abusing the eoc rocketeer while I can. I'm loving that people keep rushing me thinking that the rocketeer sucks at cqc only to discover that I've mined the whole area and using the terror of locked hellfires to force them to dodge into said mines.