58 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Krellus, on March 05 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I feel like flak is a bit good at long range still.

Flak and Mini Flak need consistent spread a la Quake and comp TF2. That way you wont get dice rolled Flak snipes or completely ridiculous misses

RisorialScion, on March 05 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

And where is the trade-off for big hitbox vs small hitbox_

It's ultimately part of the same tradeoff, the issue is that the trade off isn't currently worth it due to the health:speed proportions
Also worth noting that a large size works both ways. Bodyblocking isn't exactly useless

A reminder: Asian and I, as well as several other members of the forums, have played on C's since they were arguably OP (and even before that). The trouble is getting the right amount of speed to health, and while the amount of speed they had before was too much, what they have now is too little (I'd argue that the health gap is too low too, but I think health across the board needs some beefing up)

[aToastfan]

Another element of the scout that reduces it's power level is that to do the massive damage, it has to be relatively close.

While the flak can do ok damage at range, to really maximise its damage output you have to get close, which often puts you into the fire of multiple enemies or behind enemy lines on low health. Getting kills on a scout is largely about isolating enemies from their team mates then high tailing it out of there, there's no way you're going to last long at your effective range against multiple opponents.

So the best way to counter a scout_ Get some buddies to back you up and make sure there's team mates nearby when you're on lower health or need to repair.

While I don't deny that victory in a 2 v 1 A-Class is possible, it's not a commonplace scenario.

[Beemann]

aToastfan, on March 05 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Another element of the scout that reduces it's power level is that to do the massive damage, it has to be relatively close.

Well then I suppose it's rather lucky that Missile and Siege push you into small enclosed spaces, and that the most important point in both maps offers a ridiculous amount of cover from outside of the objective, not to mention the number of high cover approaches on Origin (read: the least imbalanced map for both objective-based modes)

Additionally, HEAT cannon

[TheVulong]

I said that in other threads some time ago and i'll say that again now: Flak-Scouts are fine but Heat-Scouts are way too powerfull.

[_A1R_]

Hey Vulong.
HEAT scout under my control is far more useless than FLAK scout.   I just can't handle it right way after many tries.

Edited by _A1R_, March 05 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[Agile]

_A1R_, on March 05 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Hey Vulong.
HEAT scout under my control is far more useless than FLAK scout.   I just can't handle it right way after many tries.

Just shoot the ground somewhat near the target and you are there, that's what they all do... that easy. Very rarely i come across a heat scout pilot that goes for direct hits and succeeds. Those that did and are comfortable with hitting targets directly will not be that affected by the upcoming patch, all the others that rely on ground shots / splash damage i think will soon shift towards the flak cannon.

Edited by Agile, March 05 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[TheVulong]

_A1R_, on March 05 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Hey Vulong.
HEAT scout under my control is far more useless than FLAK scout.   I just can't handle it right way after many tries.

Well, i guess that's for the best.   If you ask me, the Heat-Scout in Hawken is something like Motaro in UMK3.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Flak scout is fine. I wouldn't participate in this kind of poll. It looks like "You have stopped beating your aunt_" with answers "Yes" and "No".

I prefer options like this:
1. I think Mini flak scout is OP
2. I think Flak scout is OP
3. I think Heat scout is OP
4. I think scout is underpowered.
5. I think scout is fine with any weapon.

[_A1R_]

TheVulong, on March 05 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

If you ask me, the Heat-Scout in Hawken is something like Motaro in UMK3.

Feels more like Sonya with Motaro power and some fun suicidal options

[Deadmen_Tim]

waftycrank, on March 05 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Game is mostly about Lights being easiest.  Health advantages don’t measure up to Light mobility.  Dodges x2 Scout is crazy-strong in close battle.  Lights get to more XP faster.  (Lights easiet to gain Pilot Rating too_)  Heavies are too weak xor too slow.  No burst or no speed == sub-optimal choice.

There's another thread about this. I would say, many threads about this. Here we're focusing on scout's weaponry.

[HugeGuts]

After today's patch, I think the Flak Scout will become the new "must change" light mech. The Flak + TOW is excellent at corner peeking, especially with the Scout's speed. I do not think the explosive damage changes will affect the TOW part of the combo, as the optimal peeking range guarantees a lot of direct or adjacent hits with the TOW. And the explosive damage changes in general could indirectly buff the Flak part of the combo, since the major weakness of the Flak Scout is clipping with AoE damage after dodging around a corner. Flak Scouts might now be able to avoid all or almost all AoE damage.

[_A1R_]

waftycrank, on March 05 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

Will concede that my post appears unrelated.  Thing is all factors are intrinsically interrelated.  Can’t address any one factor in isolation.  Mech class specific weapons would have been better.  Clearly Scout has the cream off the top of all factors: mobility, burst, x2 splash choice, x2 dodges, hitbox.  It is indisputably the best/easiest mech.  Does that make it OP_  In isolation none of those factors are OP.  The mistake is allowing confluence of factors that win games to accumulate on one mech.

The mistake is that many heavy mech pilots don't use their machines right way.
Newbie to average scouts was destroyed by me along my very lame rocketeer or brawler gameplay. Especially flying ones.
All this crying about "endless" scout dodges means you cant dodge good enough and/or can't catch it by a preemptive rocket launch or some other shot.

[_Caffeine_]

tease_it, on March 04 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

A-classes are supposed to trade off damage capability for speed, while C-classes do the opposite.

No sir.  The difference between classes is a health-mobility trade.  The only deviation from this rule is the reaper which was given lower damage variants of SS weapons.  A classes absolutely need the same damage output of heavier classes.  They are indeed balanced by their lower health.

You seem to be under the impression that A classes are these impossible to hit little murder machines.  All a heavier class has to do is take their time and make their shots count and their increased health will win the battle.

[xXHadronCutterXx]

Umbre, on March 04 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

xXHadroncutterXx, on March 04 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

They can be OP as much as they like, but when they taste the wrath of Powershot, they go running.

So to solve a problem regarding something overpowered, you use something equally, if not even more overpowered. See the problem here_

I was being ironic for a reason.

[RisorialScion]

_Caffeine_, on March 05 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

You seem to be under the impression that A classes are these impossible to hit little murder machines.  All a heavier class has to do is take their time and make their shots count and their increased health will win the battle.

In a game without cover or objectives, yes. Unfortunately, Hawken is no such game.

On the other hand though, balancing across different objectives is extremely hard, too. Where the Brawler in Tourette-Mode might be more useful than a Scout in camping the AA/Missiles, the same Brawler would be less than ideal in TDM. Here, the Scout is the preferred Mech because it can flank the enemy better, take cover faster, help anywhere across the map faster, outrun the others and so on. with MA/Siege, the Scout is more likely to eat dirt because he HAS to be at a specific point if he wants to be useful, Brawler can do that better. in TDM, the Scout can choose for himself where he wants to be, giving him that edge over the Brawler.

[_Caffeine_]

Pretty sure the brawler can choose where he wants to be as well.

[RisorialScion]

_Caffeine_, on March 05 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Pretty sure the brawler can choose where he wants to be as well.

Oh yes, he can choose to. The elephant can choose to outrun the hunter, too. He just won't make it in time, the cheetah will.

Edited by RisorialScion, March 05 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[_Caffeine_]

Yes if the brawler put himself in a situation he couldn't escape from then he's gonna die.  Same can be said for any mech in the game.  The conditions for a no win situation are varied across mechs.  Comes down to playing your mech to it's strengths and good decision making.