58 replies to this topic

[tease_it]

Okay, players of Hawken, please don't immediately dismiss this as some guy who's just venting on the forums about a bad KD, not enough Hawken credits earned, yada yada yada - hear me out, please.

So here's the thing - whether or not the scout is overpowered.  In my opinion, yes, it is OP.  Here's why - the scout is a pretty fast mech, no_  It's an A-class designed for close-range hit-and-run, right_  So here's my complaint.  If the scout is one of the fastest mechs out there, why does it have access to weapons with some of the highest DPS ratings in the game_  The weapons I’m talking about are the flak cannon and the mini flak cannon.  If you go by the numbers in the Hawken wiki weapons page, you’ll see that the mini flak cannon has the highest DPS, while the flak cannon has the 3^rd highest DPS.  The flak cannon is also one of the primary weapons of the brawler, a C-class meant to be slow but have lots of firepower.

Sure, one can say that the scout is balanced out by having low health, but so does every other class-A mech.  The point of having low maximum health is to have speed to counteract it, making one harder to hit but less tolerant of damage.  Low armor and high speed may counteract each other, but high damage capability tips the scout more in the direction of being OP.

A-classes are supposed to trade off damage capability for speed, while C-classes do the opposite.  Sure, one can point out that C-classes have lots of armor and damage capability, but their weak dodging ability, low speed and massive size make them very easy to hit, and easy to chase down if they’re badly damaged.

You can say that the flak cannons have no range, but scouts are so small and fast, and action is so fast-paced in Hawken that it doesn’t make much of a difference.  This pretty much makes it a nightmare for someone using a B- or C-class to have to face a scout one-on-one (which happens more than you think).

If the vast majority of players think otherwise, I’ll be quiet about it.  I only ask you to consider some of the points I’ve made and vote on it.

[Jintonic]

-delete-

Edited by Jintonic, March 04 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Beemann]

Question is too broad. If you find one or two of the three weapons OP, what then_ What about if you consider one of the weapons OP, but across the board_
Also the trade off is health for speed, not damage

Edited by Beemann, March 04 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Agile]

I think otherwise. Dps isnt everything, it takes time to kill and time usually cost health which is low. Altough it can do great things, mistakes are unforgiving and get you killed fast. The heat tow combo was a bit too much, but the new patch will sort that out. See no issues with it besides that.

[Akrium]

So... the heat IS getting attention with this coming patch.

the mini flak and flak are fine in my mind.

but yes, over all the poll is quite... vague. Needs something like.. do you consider any of these weapons op, listing the weapons and letting us say 1 of them or 2 of them or all of them.

that would be a bit better.

Edited by Akrium, March 04 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[xXHadronCutterXx]

They can be OP as much as they like, but when they taste the wrath of Powershot, they go running.

[7ucky]

I don't think the mini-flak and flak are overpowered in terms of DPS, but I do think some very minor tweaks could be make to their effective ranges. I love playing the Scout, but even I'm amazed at the damage mini-flak does at longer range!

The other trade off with these weapons that I think creates more balance is that you have to hit your opponent to get the DPS because of the low fire rates. Great players should be able to dodge one or two mini-flak/flak shots when you come upon a Scout/Brawler, effectively limiting the effectiveness of those weapons.

[Umbre]

xXHadroncutterXx, on March 04 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

They can be OP as much as they like, but when they taste the wrath of Powershot, they go running.

So to solve a problem regarding something overpowered, you use something equally, if not even more overpowered. See the problem here_

[tease_it]

7ucky, on March 04 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

I don't think the mini-flak and flak are overpowered in terms of DPS, but I do think some very minor tweaks could be make to their effective ranges. I love playing the Scout, but even I'm amazed at the damage mini-flak does at longer range!

The other trade off with these weapons that I think creates more balance is that you have to hit your opponent to get the DPS because of the low fire rates. Great players should be able to dodge one or two mini-flak/flak shots when you come upon a Scout/Brawler, effectively limiting the effectiveness of those weapons.

Good point, though determining when someone is firing a flak cannon can be difficult, especially with the pace of combat, size of your mech, dash recharge, etc.  There are some weapons that require great accuracy to use effectively (sabot, MAYBE heat cannon, etc.), but since the flak is a shotgun-type weapon, it would seem to be pretty easy to hit larger mechs with it.  Then again, no one said it would be so easy to dodge either...

[_A1R_]

The only problem is that some players are underpowered, I think.
Improving their skills will give them a lot more than any balance tweaks.
Every mech becomes OP with better pilot than you Yep, I know this feel very well.

[Agile]

tease_it, on March 04 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

...
Good point, though determining when someone is firing a flak cannon can be difficult, especially with the pace of combat, size of your mech, dash recharge, etc.  There are some weapons that require great accuracy to use effectively (sabot, MAYBE heat cannon, etc.), but since the flak is a shotgun-type weapon, it would seem to be pretty easy to hit larger mechs with it.  Then again, no one said it would be so easy to dodge either...

You cant determine if opponent is shooting flak cannon (hitscan / instant) and as such you cant dodge a flak or in fact any of the bullet weapons. However you can anticipate the shot. Anticipating is one of the things that make good players good.

Edited by Agile, March 05 2013 - 12:23 AM.

[tease_it]

Akrium, on March 04 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

So... the heat IS getting attention with this coming patch.

the mini flak and flak are fine in my mind.

but yes, over all the poll is quite... vague. Needs something like.. do you consider any of these weapons op, listing the weapons and letting us say 1 of them or 2 of them or all of them.

that would be a bit better.

I've edited the poll by the way, let me know what you think

[_A1R_]

tease_it, on March 04 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I've edited the poll by the way, let me know what you think

Can I ask about your favourite mech, Its level and overall game experience_

[Gree]

Well, I'm not saying that his post is good, but he did pointed something that it's true:
The scout does a lot of damage for a "support" vehicle. It has the highest dps of the game, losing only for the cupcake.

[_A1R_]

Highest DPS from MiniFLAK looks cool on paper, but when you fighting with skilled players, MF is pretty useless compared to FLAK. You need to do 3-4 shots in a row and don't miss to reach the damage of one successful FLAK shot. Only the worst players will allow you to stay and shoot'em. Or even fly

It's all about skills.

And the very idea of light, fast moving but heavy armed mech is totally cool. Power is compensated by low health/armor and there isn't any damage-up abilities like sharpshooter has.

Edited by _A1R_, March 04 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[Umbre]

Mini-Flak has one of the lower DPS stats right now, actually. If you want the highest DPS, you go with Vulcan.

[dEd101]

The flak and miniflak are fine (although some sort of damage dropoff over range would make sense). The heat on the scout is silly atm but all the explosive weapons are getting neutered next patch so there's not much point talking about that until we see what effect the radius and aoe damage reduction has on the usefullness of this weapon combo.

[SickDownlink]

Flak is perfect were it is at.
Mini Flak needs to give me something more to make me want to use it over the Flak. ( Buff _)
Heat on scout is a bit much.

** Heat cannon should build up heat on charging **

[RisorialScion]

Beemann, on March 04 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Also the trade off is health for speed, not damage

And where is the trade-off for big hitbox vs small hitbox_

[Krellus]

I feel like flak is a bit good at long range still. Not sure. Otherwise fine (note HEAT and TOW are getting some nerfage tomorrow which may help balance out scouts).

Edited by Krellus, March 05 2013 - 12:26 AM.