58 replies to this topic

[Deadmen_Tim]

RisorialScion, on March 05 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

_Caffeine_, on March 05 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Pretty sure the brawler can choose where he wants to be as well.

Oh yes, he can choose to. The elephant can choose to outrun the hunter, too. He just won't make it in time, the cheetah will.

All the brawlers i saw on the first places is just an illusion.

[tease_it]

RisorialScion, on March 05 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Beemann, on March 04 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Also the trade off is health for speed, not damage

And where is the trade-off for big hitbox vs small hitbox_

I think the intended trade-off for size is damage.  The more weapons/firepower you have, the bigger the vehicle you need to lug it around.

[_Caffeine_]

tease_it, on March 05 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

RisorialScion, on March 05 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Beemann, on March 04 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Also the trade off is health for speed, not damage

And where is the trade-off for big hitbox vs small hitbox_

I think the intended trade-off for size is damage.  The more weapons/firepower you have, the bigger the vehicle you need to lug it around.

How about the more armor you have the slower you move_

[AsianJoyKiller]

tease_it, on March 05 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

RisorialScion, on March 05 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Beemann, on March 04 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Also the trade off is health for speed, not damage

And where is the trade-off for big hitbox vs small hitbox_

I think the intended trade-off for size is damage.  The more weapons/firepower you have, the bigger the vehicle you need to lug it around.

Nope.
There's not supposed to be any major correlation between size and damage. It's supposed to be you're either big and beefy, or small and speedy.
The problem is, at the moment the balance is off, so it ends up you're either big and not-very-beefy-at-all or you're small and speedy.

[Daronicus]

RisorialScion, on March 05 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

On the other hand though, balancing across different objectives is extremely hard, too. Where the Brawler in Tourette-Mode might be more useful than a Scout in camping the AA/Missiles, the same Brawler would be less than ideal in TDM. Here, the Scout is the preferred Mech because it can flank the enemy better, take cover faster, help anywhere across the map faster, outrun the others and so on. with MA/Siege, the Scout is more likely to eat dirt because he HAS to be at a specific point if he wants to be useful, Brawler can do that better. in TDM, the Scout can choose for himself where he wants to be, giving him that edge over the Brawler.

On the other hand, the Brawler has the health to push into enemy lines--even while everyone is looking at him--and "lead the charge" so to speak.  Even if you go boom in the process, you can take some high-priority targets down to low health (or straight-up kill them) and allow your team to mop up, and the extra health helps you a lot in those endeavors.  You can also have more prolonged presence on the front lines, as that health cushion means your 60% health is still relatively comfortable.  A-classes playing at the same levels are skirting a dangerous line.  Of course, there's the trade off in that C-class mechs take forever to repair to full.

So for the most part, I think it's different strokes for different folks.  Whether the speed-to-health ratio could use tweaking or not is certainly a big question and one that I don't have an informed opinion on, not having played when they were faster.  And it would be nice if we had a more universally useful ability.  But for the most part, I think they're pretty balanced across all modes (exception:  HEAT Scout, which definitely needed the nerf).  In my opinion, it's more that it's easier for a player to dominate less-skilled opponents in A-classes because they're not taking enough damage for the health pool to matter, so they can just zip-zip-zip and pick up kills.  Equally skilled teams, though_  I want both helping me out.

I do wish that mechs had a little more health in general, and with the nerfs to explosions, that's pretty much the case (or will be if they also reduce SS damage a little) albeit in a roundabout and indirect way.  Though then heat generation is going to need a touch-up, as fighting a C-class in a Reaper already makes your heat spike pretty significantly.

[_A1R_]

waftycrank, on March 05 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

If you can't see why x2 dodges coupled with x2 splash weapons is ultra-strong then you don't understand the core strength of Scout.  Or you have never faced a good Scout.

In a line: if you can't avoid the damage and do a counter-strike, I have bad news for you.

I have faced many good players driving different mechs and this is clearly understandable that Hawken is 90% player dependable and only 10% mech type/level dependable game.

I was sadly surprised by TV speed at the beginning, and only A-class got me a feel of playing normal. This is mine weakness, not game's, because I see how cool some players drive their heavies.

That's all.

Edited by _A1R_, March 05 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[RisorialScion]

Deadmen_Tim, on March 05 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

All the brawlers i saw on the first places is just an illusion.

Said the guy only playing A-Class. Why not taking seat in one of the Cs for a change_ Too easy for you, right_
Heaving a Brawler on top of the leaderboard takes considerably more skill than doing the same with Scout.

Sure, C Class got more Health, but what's better: Being able to take more hits (repairing forever afterwards) or avoiding them by dodging better/being harder to hit_ Couple that with better positioning (Scout gets from A to B faster) and same weapon loadout and I think everyone gets the idea that A-Classes are the better allrounders for most situations, Hence why the ratio of usage between A, B and C is hilarious. I have a feeling that more players fight in A-Classes than in B and C combined.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Yep, that's why i have Grenadier and Rocketeer. And grenadier is one of the most difficult bots of them all, i know. Because i'm actually play c-class. You just can't use it right way, you need some XP to properly drive it, that's the point. Most of your assumptions, guys, are incorrect and false, like quoted one.

P.S. I'm also use my b's time to time (:

[RisorialScion]

Awesome, I own all normally buyable C-Mechs at ~lvl10 as well, doesn't mean they are on par with A-Class. Or is there a reason why I only see you in A-Classes_ Well_

[Deadmen_Tim]

RisorialScion, on March 06 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Awesome, I own all normally buyable C-Mechs at ~lvl10 as well, doesn't mean they are on par with A-Class. Or is there a reason why I only see you in A-Classes_ Well_

Yay! Now you telling me i'm liar! Let's insult each other in PM, i'll wait you there. Dayyym, i like this forums.

[Deadmen_Tim]

But it's really offtopic now, guys. Let's remember, we're talking bout scout weapons there.

[nb79]

If you think about size, it would make sense that a big C class could have bigger or more powerful weapons/caliber. Scout and brawler have the same weapons.

[Sloppy_Fist]

I played a scout and people talk about skill and fuzzy bunny but have no idea how anything works.  The small mech can move really quick, has no counters and can run away from battle.  It's mobility combined with retarded high damage is just insane.  Hawken is so un-blanced its hard to even want to play anymore.  TF2 is a prime example of what a scout should be.  The turn rate of B and C class mechs makes it impossible to lock on to A-class mechs at mid range.  I played Unreal Torny, Counter-strike, and mech warrior.  These are balanced proven games while Hawken has a lot of work to do.. I mean a lot.  The maps are so Tiny and for the unreal engine looks quite dull.  The fun factor is lacking cause you can expect a scout which I played to run all mechs into the ground.  Give the Scout a shotgun and Flak so it will be balanced, or just get rid of he mech period.  Honestly all classes are balanced I would just scrap it all together.  The reaper also is fine and in anycase is more of a so-called scout then a scout.
The main thing that would balance out the game would be better turning side to side.
Just like mech warrior why would the larger mechs be weaker makes no sense at all.  Think of it like this, does the scout in Team Fortress have a Rocket Launcher_

Edited by Sloppy_Fist, May 01 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[vonbach]

Scouts are obscene. Its like giving the TF2 scout the soldiers rocket launcher and calling it balanced.
I can kill C classes with my Technician he simply cant turn fast enough to kill me.

[Sloppy_Fist]

its very simple I quit cause of the imbalances, knowing that I played a scout and realized this game is so out of balance.  I play mech warrior now.  Have fun with this fuzzy bunny of a game.

[Teljaxx]

Sloppy_Fist, on May 01 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I played a scout and people talk about skill and fuzzy bunny but have no idea how anything works.  The small mech can move really quick, has no counters and can run away from battle.  It's mobility combined with retarded high damage is just insane.  Hawken is so un-blanced its hard to even want to play anymore.  TF2 is a prime example of what a scout should be.  The turn rate of B and C class mechs makes it impossible to lock on to A-class mechs at mid range.  I played Unreal Torny, Counter-strike, and mech warrior.  These are balanced proven games while Hawken has a lot of work to do.. I mean a lot.  The maps are so Tiny and for the unreal engine looks quite dull.  The fun factor is lacking cause you can expect a scout which I played to run all mechs into the ground.  Give the Scout a shotgun and Flak so it will be balanced, or just get rid of he mech period.  Honestly all classes are balanced I would just scrap it all together.  The reaper also is fine and in anycase is more of a so-called scout then a scout.
The main thing that would balance out the game would be better turning side to side.
Just like mech warrior why would the larger mechs be weaker makes no sense at all.  Think of it like this, does the scout in Team Fortress have a Rocket Launcher_

Of course you came on here to whine about the Scout. I knew you would after you were whining so much in game about getting double teamed in DM, and that Scout player's "[female dog] moves" tonight. So if you want to quit, good riddance, you can go cry about how OP the current flavor of the month build in MWO is.

Anyway, I think that the main imbalance about the Scout currently is the Flak Cannon, but that is mostly because the Flak still seems fairly OP. The drastic damage falloff that was added in this last patch helped quite a bit, but I think that the DPS is still too high within its optimal range. If the firing rate is lowered a bit, and the heat generation increased to compensate, I think it would be fine.

I always feel bad about using the Flak Cannon, even on my Brawler, because it feels just a little too powerful at the moment.