54 replies to this topic

[nokari]

Majic12, on March 08 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Since competitive play should be as neutral as it gets, changing chassis parts shouldn't be allowed. You don't see a brazilian world cup player  running around in a german jersey in the finals. I vouch for keeping it as clean as possible there. Once you're approaching that level of skilled matches, even the tenth of a second that it takes to realize "not a bruiser", could give someone an advantage which is not skill based and therefore not necessary in my opinion.

Define "competitive play" here. Is anyone here currently playing eSport Hawken tournaments on private servers_ If they are, that's news nobody is talking about. Otherwise we're only talking about pub matches and friends / clans playing with each other on the browser server. There's also no player ranking or comparison stats, so this doesn't affect anyone's current standing.

If it shouldn't be allowed, then why do we have the ability to change any parts in the first place_ Why not fully customize_ I'm not going to spend money just to change stupid arms and legs that make barely any visual difference. What's the point in that_ What are you going to replace chassis customization with that people are going to want to spend money on that has equal value_ I mean if changing parts is unacceptable because it's a visual disguise, then we shouldn't have skins either because they can help people blend into the scenery and the Infiltrator's ability should be removed. I'd say the ability to sneak up on people completely undetected and near-instant kill them within 2-3 shots is a far greater threat.

If we're going to talk about something like tournaments where people compete as an eSport, then I'm pretty sure tournament rules could easily be laid out that nobody can use mechs with swapped parts. Otherwise I see no strong reason it shouldn't be allowed in regular play.

Edited by nokari, March 08 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Tomino_sama]

nokari, on March 08 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Majic12, on March 08 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Since competitive play should be as neutral as it gets, changing chassis parts shouldn't be allowed. You don't see a brazilian world cup player  running around in a german jersey in the finals. I vouch for keeping it as clean as possible there. Once you're approaching that level of skilled matches, even the tenth of a second that it takes to realize "not a bruiser", could give someone an advantage which is not skill based and therefore not necessary in my opinion.

Define "competitive play" here. Is anyone here currently playing eSport Hawken tournaments on private servers_ If they are, that's news nobody is talking about. Otherwise we're only talking about pub matches and friends / clans playing with each other on the browser server. There's also no player ranking or comparison stats, so this doesn't affect anyone's current standing.

If it shouldn't be allowed, then why do we have the ability to change any parts in the first place_ Why not fully customize_ I'm not going to spend money just to change stupid arms and legs that make barely any visual difference. What's the point in that_ What are you going to replace chassis customization with that people are going to want to spend money on that has equal value_ I mean if changing parts is unacceptable because it's a visual disguise, then we shouldn't have skins either because they can help people blend into the scenery and the Infiltrator's ability should be removed.

If we're going to talk about something like tournaments where people compete as an eSport, then I'm pretty sure tournament rules could easily be laid out that nobody can use mechs with swapped parts.

How boring life would be if all Trees were the same and if all people were the same. Just as you don't see why anyone would want to support a FREE game, others may wish to do so. "Vanity" items will never have an effect. If anything the Camo's server to make you more visible. If you have skill this is attractive as it offers a greater challenge.

From my point of View, you are missing out on Hawken by making everyone play stock. That isn't how Hawken is played right now. Why should eSports be some safe haven where you can all call fairness a reason to Dumb down the game_

example.
MMA = lots of Rules, rare to get hurt, see you next week bro.
Real Fight = Eye gouging, Throat strikes, Elbows to the back of the head, very common people die, that's all folks.

Do you want Hawken eSports to be a fuzzy and warm place where you can run stock mechs in perfectly balanced harmony_

If you do that's Faker than WWE.

Hawken is a Raw game, but there should be no wrestling references here! You won't get Fair in FPS. You can try for Balanced, but restricting cosmetics takes away from the Game as a whole, while presenting it as if it's the pinnacle of the community.

Remember eSports is an Advert for the Game. Keep that in mind.

EDIT: to Majic - the above is not aimed at you personally or your comments, this is a general response to the points  raised on Topic.

Edited by Tomino_sama, March 08 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Ryuronin]

nokari, on March 08 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Define "competitive play" here. Is anyone here currently playing eSport Hawken tournaments on private servers_ If they are, that's news nobody is talking about. Otherwise we're only talking about pub matches and friends / clans playing with each other on the browser server. There's also no player ranking or comparison stats, so this doesn't affect anyone's current standing.

If it shouldn't be allowed, then why do we have the ability to change any parts in the first place_ Why not fully customize_ I'm not going to spend money just to change stupid arms and legs that make barely any visual difference. What's the point in that_ What are you going to replace chassis customization with that people are going to want to spend money on that has equal value_ I mean if changing parts is unacceptable because it's a visual disguise, then we shouldn't have skins either because they can help people blend into the scenery and the Infiltrator's ability should be removed. I'd say the ability to sneak up on people completely undetected and near-instant kill them within 2-3 shots is a far greater threat.

If we're going to talk about something like tournaments where people compete as an eSport, then I'm pretty sure tournament rules could easily be laid out that nobody can use mechs with swapped parts. Otherwise I see no strong reason it shouldn't be allowed in regular play.

My thoughts exactly. If its something that isnt going to be allowed in COMPETITIVE PLAY then so be it (in competitive matches). But don't try to change everything in general just to make your COMPETITIVE play more fair ect and whatever. A great deal of the community is going to be casual players as this is a free-2-play game. I think a few people have it stuck in their heads that this is going to be some leet competitive only game and are trying to balance it only for that aspect. I am no stranger to rules for competitive play and have no problem with them but remember there will be a huge casual crowd for this game. I don't see any harm in being able to drop cash into the game to help support it and to customize your mechs. A few things to remember is its a game, and you don't always get what you want because its not easy to appease everyone.

[KOS_Baconman]

andythebomb, on March 07 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

By body swapping I mean using the cash cosmetic parts shop to make your Sharp Shooter look like a CRT or Raider into a Sharp Shooter.

I have played against some one who had 3 mechs that were all identically skinned to be the Sharp Shooter.
Brawler, Raider and Sharp Shooter. he had a serious advantage because I never knew what was going to come flying out of his guns.

Do we the community want to allow this in competitive play_

What about a full team of identical looking mechs_

My main beef is with torso swapping due to it being the only real way to tell the various mechs apart.

*edit i spell a wordz

i don't thinkl it was a brawler because the class C's can only switch with other class C parts, did you mean a bruiser_

[Beefsweat]

this thread

[Majic12]

nokari, on March 08 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

If we're going to talk about something like tournaments where people compete as an eSport, then I'm pretty sure tournament rules could easily be laid out that nobody can use mechs with swapped parts. Otherwise I see no strong reason it shouldn't be allowed in regular play.

I probably was thinking more in that direction. Later down the road, if the scene has grown and there will be tournaments and stuff, I'm pretty sure the rules there will prohibit chassis mods in matches, but I agree with you that in friendly matches regulations should not be too harsh.

Tomino_sama, on March 08 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

How boring life would be if all Trees were the same and if all people were the same. Just as you don't see why anyone would want to support a FREE game, others may wish to do so. "Vanity" items will never have an effect. If anything the Camo's server to make you more visible. If you have skill this is attractive as it offers a greater challenge.

From my point of View, you are missing out on Hawken by making everyone play stock. That isn't how Hawken is played right now. Why should eSports be some safe haven where you can all call fairness a reason to Dumb down the game_

example.
MMA = lots of Rules, rare to get hurt, see you next week bro.
Real Fight = Eye gouging, Throat strikes, Elbows to the back of the head, very common people die, that's all folks.

Do you want Hawken eSports to be a fuzzy and warm place where you can run stock mechs in perfectly balanced harmony_

If you do that's Faker than WWE.

Hawken is a Raw game, but there should be no wrestling references here! You won't get Fair in FPS. You can try for Balanced, but restricting cosmetics takes away from the Game as a whole, while presenting it as if it's the pinnacle of the community.

Remember eSports is an Advert for the Game. Keep that in mind.

EDIT: to Majic - the above is not aimed at you personally or your comments, this is a general response to the points  raised on Topic.

Like I mentioned above, I agree that for the current scene there is, measures like regulating chassis use during matches would be pretty over the top.

But as soon as there are ladders and tournaments around, there should be a regulatory system for matches that creates an even ground for those matches to be fought on. You're referring to e-sports here - sure, we're not there by a long time, but once it goes in that direction, people need to think about stuff like that. I'm not very familiar with the e-sports scene as of now, but back when I was more active (mostly CS 1.6 times), there was no one playing custom skins or anythink like that during wars. E-Sports has come a long way ever since, more money is involved, everything is getting more and more professional. The fight analogy you use here does not work in that context, imho. Backyard fights with no rules were never and will never be considered a "sports event". As soon as you talk sports on a prefessional competitive level, there NEED to be rules to lay out a system where skill makes the result and not a guy pulling a knife on you during a fist fight.

Like I mentioned before, Brazil won't play in German jerseys during a world cup.

For the raw playing experience you're talking about, there's still enough room for that on public servers or if you're playing friendlies or with your mates or whatever.

But yeah well, as I see it, as soon as it gets "professional" you need to think MMA.

It took me a while to suck this out of my brain, I'm not good with words, excuse any errors please. Hope you understand the point I'm trying to get across.

cheers.

[Bojty]

public = Yes
maybe future esport = No

[Aims]

Bojty, on March 31 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

public = Yes
maybe future esport = No

Exactly. For public play... who really gives a fuzzy bunny. For legitimate tournaments it is a fairly simply regulation which is often in place in other games too. No big deal.

[Beemann]

Aims, on March 31 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Exactly. For public play... who really gives a fuzzy bunny. For legitimate tournaments it is a fairly simply regulation which is often in place in other games too. No big deal.

We got how many "P2Win" accusations due to poor user readability and a lack of appropriate teaching systems again_
I mean... the upcoming patch appears to have that symbol beside the pilot's name, and with the proper teaching tools you could let newbies know that it denotes the class... but that's only if they can read Hawken's tiny smudgy writing and symbols

[Aims]

But what is more likely to change - one of their most prominent ways of making money_ or their rather poor interface_

[nokari]

Aims, on March 31 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

But what is more likely to change - one of their most prominent ways of making money_ or their rather poor interface_

Wait wait wait! I got this..

Don't give me a hint!











Fuzzy bunnies_

[Keyser Soze]

andythebomb, on March 08 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes you can easily press tab and see what people are using buy if all the a's have the same skin and b's and c's  your not going to know whether the mech you saw jet around the corner was a crt ss or raider.

Nothing stops players from swapping mechs every death. I don't want to have to stop and check the enemy team comp every time we get a kill. i should be able to tell what im fighting just buy looking.

I feel like I'm playing tf2 where all the scouts could be snipers and snipers scouts or league of legends where that alistar starts laying down singed's poison gas.

Here we go again with this ISH.....Man this topic still comes up because of folks whining about a deceptive pilot who they are having trouble keeping up with(pitiful and buy creating this poll you look pitiful as well)....well if we nerf the skins and bodies to make the game easier for you then we should also nerf your whining to make the forums more enjoyable for everyone else.......I'm Just Saying....

Edited by Keyser Soze, April 07 2013 - 07:48 PM.

[Beemann]

Keyser Soze, on April 07 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

andythebomb, on March 08 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes you can easily press tab and see what people are using buy if all the a's have the same skin and b's and c's  your not going to know whether the mech you saw jet around the corner was a crt ss or raider.

Nothing stops players from swapping mechs every death. I don't want to have to stop and check the enemy team comp every time we get a kill. i should be able to tell what im fighting just buy looking.

I feel like I'm playing tf2 where all the scouts could be snipers and snipers scouts or league of legends where that alistar starts laying down singed's poison gas.

Here we go again with this ISH.....Man this topic still comes up because of folks whining about a deceptive pilot who they are having trouble keeping up with(pitiful and buy creating this poll you look pitiful as well)....well if we nerf the skins and bodies to make the game easier for you then we should also nerf your whining to make the forums more enjoyable for everyone else.......I'm Just Saying....

I love how stubbonrly you ignore the things we've learned about game design over the years so that you can trashtalk people

Edited by Beemann, April 07 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Keyser Soze]

Beemann, on April 07 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Keyser Soze, on April 07 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

andythebomb, on March 08 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes you can easily press tab and see what people are using buy if all the a's have the same skin and b's and c's  your not going to know whether the mech you saw jet around the corner was a crt ss or raider.

Nothing stops players from swapping mechs every death. I don't want to have to stop and check the enemy team comp every time we get a kill. i should be able to tell what im fighting just buy looking.

I feel like I'm playing tf2 where all the scouts could be snipers and snipers scouts or league of legends where that alistar starts laying down singed's poison gas.

Here we go again with this ISH.....Man this topic still comes up because of folks whining about a deceptive pilot who they are having trouble keeping up with(pitiful and buy creating this poll you look pitiful as well)....well if we nerf the skins and bodies to make the game easier for you then we should also nerf your whining to make the forums more enjoyable for everyone else.......I'm Just Saying....

I love how stubbonrly you ignore the things we've learned about game design over the years so that you can trashtalk people

It is fun isn't it_

[Beemann]

It's mostly just a waste of everyone's time honestly. The complaint is one that stems from one of the big competitive considerations. User readability is a must for any game that wants to be watched by people who aren't absolute pros, and the easiest way to go about doing this is to have distinct silhouettes. Chassis swapping utterly destroys this notion, and the only arguable advantage it provides in terms of gameplay is locked behind a paywall

[Skrill]

and it breaks down to another steel killer argument. as if the forums didnt have enough of these. e sports no chassis swapping its that simple. next thread please.

[Beemann]

Skrill, on April 07 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

and it breaks down to another steel killer argument. as if the forums didnt have enough of these. e sports no chassis swapping its that simple. next thread please.

Naw bro we should just ignore the design decisions made in Starcraft 2, every single game spawned from Dota, TF2 (sidenote: I'm pretty sure TF2 has a casual audience somewhere in there... something about cosmetics that don't reduce user readability_) etc. etc.
Hawken is totally unique and awesome because it eschews the notion of making the game easier to understand and places information-obscuring cosmetics behind a cash-only paywall.

[ShadowWarg]

I'm going to say yes it should be allowed. Especially seeing as how the next patch (when every the fook it is coming out) adds class icons next to the name of the players.

[Skrill]

im agreeing with you beemann no chassis swapping in comp playas it gives a advantage even with the icon.i just dont want this to turn into another duel wielding thread as far as petty arguments and sarcasm go.

[Beemann]

Skrill, on April 08 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

im agreeing with you beemann no chassis swapping in comp playas it gives a advantage even with the icon.i just dont want this to turn into another duel wielding thread as far as petty arguments and sarcasm go.

Really shouldn't be limited to comp honestly, TF2 has a huge casual playerbase that they've managed to retain for like... 6 years now

ShadowWarg, on April 08 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm going to say yes it should be allowed. Especially seeing as how the next patch (when every the fook it is coming out) adds class icons next to the name of the players.

I dont know about you, but I find the text and symbols in Hawken to be remarkably small and kinda blurry