70 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Ker4u, on June 30 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on June 30 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

TheVulong, on June 30 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Ker4u, on June 30 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

i'm 99% sure that deve wont change anything, at least that's the impression i got after cockpit episode with hughes

I know. But i need them to know that they're doing things wrong.

Hughes was saying that they are going to make more maps like frontline and facility. Those are the most balanced maps in the game. Can't really ask for much more than that.

what_ origin > all
frontline& facility heavens for SS

Origin is terribly balanced. the S2 bridge is what basically makes or breaks your team outside of A mechs bumrushing both outside points, and there's basically no room for classes outside of CQC mechs on that map
Facility is at the other end, where it's way too good for Sharpies and both teams to readily hold their respective points, making it a king of the hill fight for S2
Frontline would be just about perfect if mechs moved a bit faster. Sharpshooters need to either be in easily flanked positions or exposed to do decent sniping, and outside of the fact that S2 is too easily camped, the fights over the points actually feel a lot nicer than they do in the clausterphobic regions of Origin

Bazaar is still the worst for balance though, because of that wall

[Qazda]

IMHO Frontline is pretty balanced, any snipers sticking to a single area quickly get killed. The anti sniper walls in Facility do seem like a great idea. I just don't think it fits the aesthetic of the map to have walls sticking out, maybe some semi-smooth ridges_

TheVulong, on June 30 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I don't know who's responsible for maps in Adhesive but i wanna say - dude, learn some freakin 'basics before making your next one. I suggest you to ckeck out Unreal tournament series for that.

This might seem like constructive criticism because you point out an example of better work, but you are being a bit of a jerk about it. Please remember that people have feelings. (And that they work harder and more inspired when they are feeling good. )

EDIT: B.t.w. there is an interview with the responsible party here.

Edited by Qazda, July 01 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Bombdig]

I agree Uptown needs some changes, but I'd say keep the narrow tunnel approach and simply add more paths. The one area you say is totally fine is the least used area so creating pathways leading there might attract more combat in that zone. I really like the idea of having platforms on the walls that would also act as cover.

The main fixes that could be done to Facility would be altering the respawn points. Perhaps adding a bit more area along the outer edge. Also fixing the rock cliffs visual shape and boundaries. I tend to get stuck on the walls more often than dying on the map. As for the S2 point I'd slope it downward in order to expose snipers. The center of the map is open for all kinds of long range combat, but I'm not sure if much of anything should be added. Combat is steered towards the outer edge of the map as a result which is a good way to force player movement.

[FakeName]

I just read the first post of this thread and I have following to say:

The maps are GREAT in Hawken. I pretty like them. My fav. map is Titan because of the main bridge in the Center and the big place with less covers in the lower part of the center + the funny tunnels to sneak behind the enemy.

In every shooter game I see so much cover so it's impossible to make a fight without any kind of break (hiding behind a wall to repair etc.). So especially for sustained dmg type mechs is a map without cover a really good choice. Also for snipers, for wich covers are boring. A free sight on the target is something good and in almost every map is a way to hide from the enemy.
In the border areas of every map are many walls, buildings etc. to hide and in the center of the map is the fighting action (depending on wich mode you are playing, in deathmatch is the fight anywhere).
However I like the mapdesign because it requiers a tactical thought before you fight and if you shoot first and think later, you will just walk into a death zone and ... die.

[Siamenis]

I mostly approve of current maps, except maybe Uptown and Origin. My favourite is currently the Frontline, I especially like the size of it, and it would be nice if future maps were of the same size or even bigger.

[Massive_Assailant_Stingray]

I have to agree that the maps are balanced terribly.

I think Frontline is fantastic, and is probly the best map currently. That's because the spawns and paths from spawn to S2 are symmetrical. And that's how ALL your maps NEED to be. Especially if this is supposed to be a "comptetitive" game.

Look at Bazaar. I really like some parts of that map. But it's one of the most unbalanced team to team wise. One team approaches from a wide open field scattered with buildings below S2, the other team approaches from 3 choke points positioned above S2. It's like playing an entirely different map depending on what team you're on. It doesn't make any sense at all.

And as for facility, it doesn't even have dedicated team spawns_ I played a match once where at the very beggining of the match I spawned 2 mech lengths from an enemy. I'm assuming spawns on that map are dictated by points that are captured. But it's still unacceptable. That random spawn right off the bat is no good. Competitive gamers go through great lengths to eliminate any and all random game factors. No one wants their out come resting on dice rolls. When you play a game competitively you want only your skill and team effort to dictate the flow of the game.

Origin is pretty bad. It's unplayable for a pub of 20. And be very honest, 20 man servers or larger is how the majority of your pub community is going to play. But I even feel it's to small for a 12 man server. I just don't even know how to put this into words, but Origin is massively terrible.

[TheVulong]

Quote

I think Frontline is fantastic, and is probly the best map currently. That's because the spawns and paths from spawn to S2 are symmetrical. And that's how ALL your maps NEED to be. Especially if this is supposed to be a "comptetitive" game.

The only good thing about this map is that it's nearly symmetrical. Bad things: size and deathzones i marked on the picture. If you got caught in those - you're 100% dead simply because the area there is too open to run or hide. + huge advantage for Reapers and SS' + way from S1 to S3 takes forever even in A-Type so MA on Frontline is awful.

Edited by TheVulong, July 05 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[TheVulong]

Frontline MA version added. (See the OP post)

[FakeName]

I pretty like it, if there are no positions to hide, especially in deathmatch so the enemy is forced to either fight or die, if he runs away I have enought time to get an easy kill.

Also in teamfights, I hate if there is always a playce to hide so they can escape if they are losing a fight (maybe a 2vs2). If we chase, the other players of the enemy team will kill us because the 2 mechs, who excape abusing the "z" button.

However, I quite like the maps, there are enought zones to be safe and one dead zone is pretty okey, If you don't manage to stay alive in there, avoid them.

[TheVulong]

Quote

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]However, I quite like the maps, there are enought zones to be safe and one dead zone is pretty okey, If you don't manage to stay alive in there, [/font]avoid them.

And here's the problem. This map is too big to avoid certain paths.

[FakeName]

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Quote

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]However, I quite like the maps, there are enought zones to be safe and one dead zone is pretty okey, If you don't manage to stay alive in there, [/font]avoid them.

And here's the problem. This map is too big to avoid certain paths.

How can I understand that_ ... The bigger a map is, the more choices you have to avoid a zone... Or am I wrong_

[TheVulong]

FakeName, on July 06 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Quote

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]However, I quite like the maps, there are enought zones to be safe and one dead zone is pretty okey, If you don't manage to stay alive in there, [/font]avoid them.

And here's the problem. This map is too big to avoid certain paths.

How can I understand that_ ... The bigger a map is, the more choices you have to avoid a zone... Or am I wrong_

Not in this case. If you want to avoid a death zone on Frontline you should go around it but usually that takes forever because of the size. This is unacceptable in game where every second counts.

Edited by TheVulong, July 06 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Not in this case. If you want to avoid a death zone on Frontline you should go around it but usually that takes forever because of the size. This is unacceptable in game where every second counts.

OR you can accept that as a deliberate design decision and, outside of requesting a few speed/mobility tweaks that the game probably needs anyway, you can make more careful decisions about where you go and how you get there. If the enemy team has S2, go to one of the edge points and push from there. If they have the edge points but not, you can either push from S2 or make a frontal assault
But you have to decide which you're going to do when you spawn. You can't just spawn and zip over to a point by the time your fuel runs out

Additionally, the approaching paths are large enough that juking is actually possible. Your "death zones" are the size of some rooms in the other maps, and your solution is apparently to add tiny chokepoints

[TheVulong]

Beemann, on July 06 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Not in this case. If you want to avoid a death zone on Frontline you should go around it but usually that takes forever because of the size. This is unacceptable in game where every second counts.

OR you can accept that as a deliberate design decision and, outside of requesting a few speed/mobility tweaks that the game probably needs anyway, you can make more careful decisions about where you go and how you get there. If the enemy team has S2, go to one of the edge points and push from there. If they have the edge points but not, you can either push from S2 or make a frontal assault
But you have to decide which you're going to do when you spawn. You can't just spawn and zip over to a point by the time your fuel runs out

Additionally, the approaching paths are large enough that juking is actually possible. Your "death zones" are the size of some rooms in the other maps, and your solution is apparently to add tiny chokepoints

No, you just didn't get the thing here.

[TheVulong]

[Sylhiri]

Start of a 7+ page discussion_ Could be :0

[TheVulong]

Sylhiri, on July 06 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Start of a 7+ page discussion_ Could be :0

I don't know, Depends on how many old-timers gonna visit this thread.

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

thesearetheproblem.jpg

Except they aren't, they're called walls and they're meant to restrict movement... and your "solution" to them is to add the most absurd chokepoints to the map (1 mech wide corridors that are easily spammed_ Great fix!)

[TheVulong]

Beemann, on July 06 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

thesearetheproblem.jpg

Except they aren't, they're called walls and they're meant to restrict movement... and your "solution" to them is to add the most absurd chokepoints to the map (1 mech wide corridors that are easily spammed_ Great fix!)

1. These walls are way too big. As i said before, it takes too long to walk them around. C-class users can go f*ck themselves.
2. These walls create a few deathtrap-hallways which are easily abused by snipers. C-class users can go f*ck themselves here again.
3. Chockepoints, you say_ Here:

Quote

[font=sans-serif]In military strategy, a [/font]choke point[font=sans-serif] (or [/font]chokepoint[font=sans-serif]) is a geographical feature on land such as a valley, [/font]defile[font=sans-serif] or a bridge, or at sea such as a [/font]strait[font=sans-serif] which an armed force is forced to pass, sometimes on a substantially narrower [/font]front[font=sans-serif], and therefore greatly decreasing its combat power, in order to reach its [/font]objective[font=sans-serif]. A choke point would allow a numerically inferior defending force to successfully prevent a larger opponent because the attacker would not be able to [/font]bring their superior numbers to bear[font=sans-serif].[/font]

The "chockepoints" that i've added don't force you to pass through them - they're just alternative routes/shortcuts. Don't forget that i didn't block any of the old routes.
4. I did some raw painting on those maps so tonnels can be bigger.

Edited by TheVulong, July 06 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 06 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

1. These walls are way too big. As i said before, it takes too long to walk them around. C-class users can go f*ck themselves.
2. These walls create a few deathtrap-hallways which are easily abused by snipers. C-class users can go f*ck themselves here again.
3. Chockepoints, you say_ Here:

Quote

In military strategy, a choke point (or chokepoint) is a geographical feature on land such as a valley, defile or a bridge, or at sea such as a strait which an armed force is forced to pass, sometimes on a substantially narrower front, and therefore greatly decreasing its combat power, in order to reach its objective. A choke point would allow a numerically inferior defending force to successfully prevent a larger opponent because the attacker would not be able to bring their superior numbers to bear.

The "chockepoints" that i've added don't force you to pass through them - they're just alternative routes/shortcuts. Don't forget that i didn't block any of the old routes.
4. I did some raw painting on those maps so tonnels can be bigger.

1. Except they're fine. C classes being gimped is not the result of Frontline, it's the result of a poor movement system that unnecessarily gimps them, and a lack of compensating advantages
2. Except they don't. Additionally, you've actually created more spots for Sharpshooters by creating walls for them to hide behind and peekaboo incoming mechs
3/4The tunnels you've outlined are deathtraps, plain and simple. You can't make them bigger because you've already inefficiently used that space

The only spot I'd really change on that map is one you didnt touch, and that's the underground ramp to S1