70 replies to this topic

[FakeName]

The reason why I don't want more tunnels and so on is, sometimes mechs have to die. If they would be so many ways to escape, a stupid engage wouldn't be punished (for example going YOLO in an 1vs4). And yes, flanking is powerfull so there has to be a price!
If you could flank enemies every time you want, this game would be very unfun for me because it would end up in battlefield 3: No clear front line.

Edited by FakeName, July 06 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[TheVulong]

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1. Except they're fine. C classes being gimped is not the result of Frontline, it's the result of a poor movement system that unnecessarily gimps them, and a lack of compensating advantages

That's why i've added shortcuts.

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2. Except they don't. Additionally, you've actually created more spots for Sharpshooters by creating walls for them to hide behind and peekaboo incoming mechs

It does work both ways, you know.

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3/4The tunnels you've outlined are deathtraps, plain and simple. You can't make them bigger because you've already inefficiently used that space

How are they deathtraps_ Why can't you just understand one thing: if you have multiple exits from one area - it's not a dethtrap.

[TheVulong]

FakeName, on July 06 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

The reason why I don't want more tunnels and so on is, sometimes mechs have to die. If they would be so many ways to escape, a stupid engage wouldn't be punished (for example going YOLO in an 1vs4). And yes, flanking is powerfull so there has to be a price!
If you could flank enemies every time you want, this game would be very unfun for me because it would end up in battlefield 3: No clear front line.

Remember your Siege games on Frontline - remember how awesome it is to attack the AA while being pinned down to a single cover/chokepoint. Especially if there is a sniper on the bridge.

[FakeName]

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

FakeName, on July 06 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

The reason why I don't want more tunnels and so on is, sometimes mechs have to die. If they would be so many ways to escape, a stupid engage wouldn't be punished (for example going YOLO in an 1vs4). And yes, flanking is powerfull so there has to be a price!
If you could flank enemies every time you want, this game would be very unfun for me because it would end up in battlefield 3: No clear front line.

Remember your Siege games on Frontline - remember how awesome it is to attack the AA while being pinned down to a single cover/chokepoint. Especially if there is a sniper on the bridge.

Better than beeing flanked from every side.

[TheVulong]

FakeName, on July 07 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

FakeName, on July 06 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

The reason why I don't want more tunnels and so on is, sometimes mechs have to die. If they would be so many ways to escape, a stupid engage wouldn't be punished (for example going YOLO in an 1vs4). And yes, flanking is powerfull so there has to be a price!
If you could flank enemies every time you want, this game would be very unfun for me because it would end up in battlefield 3: No clear front line.

Remember your Siege games on Frontline - remember how awesome it is to attack the AA while being pinned down to a single cover/chokepoint. Especially if there is a sniper on the bridge.

Better than beeing flanked from every side.

As i said above, it does work both ways.

[FakeName]

However I wouldn't like any map changes. Just palyed a TDM match on Front Line and Baazar. I never had problems with flanking, escaping or hiding.

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

That's why i've added shortcuts.

You've added shortcuts to try to solve a problem that isn't solved by shortcuts. Congrats

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

It does work both ways, you know.

Not when the cover is where they'd snipe from bro
You understand how cover WORKS right_ If they're at the spot with the obstruction, they get to use it and you get to find your own

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

How are they deathtraps_ Why can't you just understand one thing: if you have multiple exits from one area - it's not a dethtrap.

You've provided areas with piss-poor maneuverability
If you have no method of dodging, you've created a deathtrap
Also, if an area that has multiple approaches is never a deathtrap, could you explain your "death zones"_ All of them have alternative routes

[ReachH]

Frontline feels like a failed experiment in scale. I can imagine it playing a lot better in a faster build of Hawken.

All maps in Hawken have a few glaring flaws that stop me from regarding them as good maps, in any game mode (Frontline, Uptown, Facility, Origin, Bazaar... I'm sure you can recall many issues from experience).

The best is Prosk, if they would just fix the damn invisi-wall-weapon-clipping bull.

There is no MA map that is good yet.

Just my two cents... overall I'm not too pessimistic, its pretty normal for map-making to take time to find its way. If anything, its a good thing that maps so far have been so varied, and polarized. It shows the designers are still willing to experiment, and I hope the uniqueness of each map makes it easier to learn what works and what doesn't so far.

Edited by ReachH, July 07 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Leonhardt]

ReachH, on July 07 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Frontline feels like a failed experiment in scale. I can imagine it playing a lot better in a faster build of Hawken.

Funny you should say that because Frontline was developed and tested during a faster build of Hawken. lol

Along with quite a few of the other maps, however their problems are not as simple in comparison.

Edited by Leonhardt, July 07 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[TheVulong]

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You've added shortcuts to try to solve a problem that isn't solved by shortcuts. Congrats

An issue of getting from point A to point B fast isn't solved by shortcuts_ Are you f*ckin' kidding me_

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[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Not when the cover is where they'd snipe from bro[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]You understand how cover WORKS right_ If they're at the spot with the obstruction, they get to use it and you get to find your own[/font]

I can't explain it to you using the map since it's a raw example. All i know is that the bridge should be less of a camping spot.

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[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]You've provided areas with piss-poor maneuverability[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If you have no method of dodging, you've created a deathtrap[/font]

And that's where your "be careful" thing shows up. + As i said before, those drawings are raw. + The key factor about those tonnels is timesaving.

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Also, if an area that has multiple approaches is never a deathtrap, could you explain your "death zones"_ All of them have alternative routes

The deathzones i marked are nothing more but long hallways/vast open areas with only one entrance/one exit and lack of cover. A huge chokepoints, i would say.

Edited by TheVulong, July 07 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

An issue of getting from point A to point B fast isn't solved by shortcuts_ Are you f*ckin' kidding me_

Protip: C mechs aren't bad because Frontline is big. C mechs are bad on every map. Changing Frontline doesn't solve the solution, it just

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I can't explain it to you using the map since it's a raw example. All i know is that the bridge should be less of a camping spot.

It can't be less of a camping spot. You'd have to revamp half of the map in order to make that a possibility

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

And that's where your "be careful" thing shows up. + As i said before, those drawings are raw. + The key factor about those tonnels is timesaving.

Protip: You can be careful on the current map, and dying saves you no time

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

The deathzones i marked are nothing more but long hallways/vast open areas with only one entrance/one exit and lack of cover. A huge chokepoints, i would say.

Except they DO have cover, they just don't have Origin cover, which is actually a good thing. CQC burst mechs have been getting a free ride in Hawken for far too long

[TheVulong]

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Protip: C mechs aren't bad because Frontline is big. C mechs are bad on every map. Changing Frontline doesn't solve the solution, it just

A's and B's need shortcuts too.

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It can't be less of a camping spot. You'd have to revamp half of the map in order to make that a possibility

Just place a wall from one building to the other on both sides like i did and you're golden.

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Protip: You can be careful on the current map

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and dying saves you no time

Shortcuts do.

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Except they DO have cover

Not all of them. + the ones with cover are still pretty open to make it out alive. Add at least one alternative route from/to that area and everything will be OK.

[AsianJoyKiller]

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

[TheVulong]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

Cause i'm not a level designer. But even i can see that those maps have some critical balance issues and do need rework.

[AsianJoyKiller]

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

Cause i'm not a level designer. But even i can see that those maps have some critical balance issues and do need rework.

My point is that some of your "solutions" are just as bad, worse or entirely unneeded.

Like your "Anti-Camping" walls as one example.
You know what those are_ Those are a campers wet dream. Those AC walls are cover and cover is a camper's best friend.

[TheVulong]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

Cause i'm not a level designer. But even i can see that those maps have some critical balance issues and do need rework.

My point is that some of your "solutions" are just as bad, worse or entirely unneeded.

Like your "Anti-Camping" walls as one example.
You know what those are_ Those are a campers wet dream. Those AC walls are cover and cover is a camper's best friend.

Ok, i can agree on that because i wasn't really sure myself if this is a good idea.  

P.S. I guess Facility needs no changes after all.

But i still think Frontline needs more alternative routes.

[TheVulong]

Frontline(main changes) added. (see OP post).

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

Cause i'm not a level designer. But even i can see that those maps have some critical balance issues and do need rework.

My point is that some of your "solutions" are just as bad, worse or entirely unneeded.

Like your "Anti-Camping" walls as one example.
You know what those are_ Those are a campers wet dream. Those AC walls are cover and cover is a camper's best friend.

Ok, i can agree on that because i wasn't really sure myself if this is a good idea.  

P.S. I guess Facility needs no changes after all.

But i still think Frontline needs more alternative routes.

Facility needs the most changes, as in it needs to fix its spawn system and it needs to not be the Saskatchewan of Hawken

[TheVulong]

Beemann, on July 07 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

Cause i'm not a level designer. But even i can see that those maps have some critical balance issues and do need rework.

My point is that some of your "solutions" are just as bad, worse or entirely unneeded.

Like your "Anti-Camping" walls as one example.
You know what those are_ Those are a campers wet dream. Those AC walls are cover and cover is a camper's best friend.

Ok, i can agree on that because i wasn't really sure myself if this is a good idea.  

P.S. I guess Facility needs no changes after all.

But i still think Frontline needs more alternative routes.

Facility needs the most changes, as in it needs to fix its spawn system and it needs to not be the Saskatchewan of Hawken

I'm ready to read your solutions.

[Beemann]

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Beemann, on July 07 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

TheVulong, on July 07 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 07 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

For somebody who's preaching about needing to know the basics of building balanced maps, you really don't have a good handle on the basics...

Cause i'm not a level designer. But even i can see that those maps have some critical balance issues and do need rework.

My point is that some of your "solutions" are just as bad, worse or entirely unneeded.

Like your "Anti-Camping" walls as one example.
You know what those are_ Those are a campers wet dream. Those AC walls are cover and cover is a camper's best friend.

Ok, i can agree on that because i wasn't really sure myself if this is a good idea.  

P.S. I guess Facility needs no changes after all.

But i still think Frontline needs more alternative routes.

Facility needs the most changes, as in it needs to fix its spawn system and it needs to not be the Saskatchewan of Hawken

I'm ready to read your solutions.

My initial suggestion was to raise the base out of the ground and go from there, place the silos in different positions and add bases behind the current starting spawn areas
You`d defiinitely need to open up the inside of that base though. Way too many tiny deathtrap corridors. It would need a pretty serious rework with that initial suggestion, so it might be better to simply add another floor or two to mid, lower S2 and maybe even put S1 and S3 in elevated positions instead. Sorta like a reverse-Origin