39 replies to this topic

[OdinTheWise]

the brawler still feels a bit sluggish. it is much better but it still needs some more boost speed

[eth0]

brawler and rocketeer should swap speeds. close-range mechs be faster than long range ones, yeah_

[PhysicsCrime]

OdinTheWise, on December 13 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

the brawler still feels a bit sluggish. it is much better but it still needs some more boost speed

I think it feels about right.  It's the second fastest heavy right now in terms of both run speed and boost speed.  The grenadier runs only slightly faster and the vanguard's boost speed is just silly.

It would be nice though if they took 5 points off armor and put them in suspensions.  I think the dodge cooldown being so long is a significant problem.

eth0, on December 13 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

brawler and rocketeer should swap speeds. close-range mechs be faster than long range ones, yeah_

Brawler is now slightly faster than rocketeer when boosting and much faster when walking.


For comparison (max speeds of heavies):
Brawler: 10 boost, 10 hydraulics
Grenadier: 8 boost, 12 hydraulics
Rocketeer: 9 boost, 7 hydraulics
Vanguard: 15 boost(I think), 9 hydraulics

Edited by PhysicsCrime, December 13 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[FenixStryk]

The Brawler fell out of grace primarily because Ascension offered the Brawler absolutely abysmal base tuning stats, far below all other Mechs in its class. The Brawler has: the worst base Heat Sinks (9), Cooling Units (3), Suspensions (0), Hydraulics (3), Air Dynamics (1), Radar (90m), the second worst Generator (9.5 L/s, only .5 above the Gren), the worst Turret Mode, and -- until very recently -- the worst Boost Thrusters (now 3, was 0). Almost every tune on the Brawler is worst-in-game, with the only perks going for this Mech being the Flak Cannon, Fuel Tank and Armor; these benefits are completely squandered if you don't have pep in your step.

With a Fuel Tank as large as the Brawler's, there is no good reason for this Mech to have anything less than Best-in-Class Boost Thrusters (and perhaps sub-par Hydraulics+Generator to compensate). The Flak synergizes fantastically with high Boost Mechs since it is a non-charge burst weapon, but the Brawler simply cannot output the speeds necessary for it to perform. Truly, the Brawler is Ascension's greatest shame.

I want to see the Brawler back on its feet before the next C Class is added to the game. There is no excuse for one of Hawken's flagship Mechs to be in tatters.

[ThirdEyE]

Brawler actually feels really strong again, thanks to the recent hotfix.  Its boost speed with full boost thrusters tuning is enough to get around and keep up with some people, and its fuel tank allows you to keep boosting far longer than anyone else.

I switched from full heatsinks to full cooling units, since 4.5 second overheat is pretty good and gives you 3 more tuning points.  Still debating putting my remaining points into weapons loader or suspensions, since both provide good benefit.

The problem with suspensions on Brawler is that the base cooldown is still too high imo, and even putting 7 points into it doesn't provide a reasonably low dodge cooldown.  Really, this is the only thing I think still needs to be changed on Brawler.  I wouldn't even mind the horribly slow walk and boost speed as long as it could dodge every second.

Edited by ThirdEyE, December 13 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[HighCaliber]

Don't how I feel about your suspensions Third (afterall it can afford to tank those hits) but yeah.

Third confirmed for wrecking face in brawler. He beasted it up in DM with first place finishes on multiple maps against good players. Mech might just be ok.

[Super_Pickle]

HighCaliber, on December 13 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Don't how I feel about your suspensions Third (afterall it can afford to tank those hits) but yeah.

Third confirmed for wrecking face in brawler. He beasted it up in DM with first place finishes on multiple maps against good players. Mech might just be ok.

Double confirmed. Third is crazy in his brawler. Fighting him a few days ago was the first time I actually have run away from a brawler in a good long time. I was stinking afraid in my scout. Same weapons, except he had twice as much health as me, and he could move just enough that it wasn't easy to hit him. The brawler probably needs a few more positive adjustments, but I've seen some good players using and winning with it recently, so that's always a step in the right direction. I'll have to try my brawler again some time.

Edited by Super_Pickle, December 13 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[IareDave]

Brawler was decent before the hotfix imo, and now it's just got a little more mobility. Great mech, definitely balanced. Making it any faster would push it into OP territory

[PhysicsCrime]

IareDave, on December 13 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Brawler was decent before the hotfix imo, and now it's just got a little more mobility. Great mech, definitely balanced. Making it any faster would push it into OP territory

I think 5 points of armor to 5 points of suspension would be an acceptable change and would not make it OP.

[OdinTheWise]

It's called the brawler for a reason. It is too slow to brawl effectively though. We should assemble a Illal brawler defense force.

[eth0]

PhysicsCrime, on December 13 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

OdinTheWise, on December 13 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

the brawler still feels a bit sluggish. it is much better but it still needs some more boost speed

I think it feels about right.  It's the second fastest heavy right now in terms of both run speed and boost speed.  The grenadier runs only slightly faster and the vanguard's boost speed is just silly.

It would be nice though if they took 5 points off armor and put them in suspensions.  I think the dodge cooldown being so long is a significant problem.

eth0, on December 13 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

brawler and rocketeer should swap speeds. close-range mechs be faster than long range ones, yeah_

Brawler is now slightly faster than rocketeer when boosting and much faster when walking.


For comparison (max speeds of heavies):
Brawler: 10 boost, 10 hydraulics
Grenadier: 8 boost, 12 hydraulics
Rocketeer: 9 boost, 7 hydraulics
Vanguard: 15 boost(I think), 9 hydraulics

I remembered incorrectly. Thanks for the new stats!

[FenixStryk]

PhysicsCrime, on December 13 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

For comparison (max speeds of heavies):
Brawler: 10 boost, 10 hydraulics
Grenadier: 8 boost, 12 hydraulics
Rocketeer: 9 boost, 7 hydraulics
Vanguard: 15 boost(I think), 9 hydraulics

These numbers are misleading because they do not communicate the investment necessary to achieve these speeds, nor do tuning point values accurately convey the true in-game speeds. Unlike every other C Class, the Brawler requires 14 points to reach these speeds -- whereas the Gren and Van do it in 7, and the Rock with none at all, let alone Air Dynamics (a form of movement reasonably competitive with boosting). As 10/6/7/7 and 10/10/7/3 tuning point spreads are often optimal and the Brawler is likewise behooved to fully acquire Cooling Units (read: it can't get 10 B+H without an unwise sacrifice), it is unreasonable to posit that the Brawler moves with speed equivalent to that of the rest of the class.

How about comparing the base stats in meters_
Brawler: 11.5 m/s walk, 20.16 m/s boost.
Grenadier: 12.5 m/s walk, 23.76 m/s boost.
Vanguard: 14.5 m/s walk, 25.92 m/s boost, AD applicable.
Rocketeer: 13.5 m/s walk, 24.48 m/s boost, AD applicable.

With 7 points invested:
Boost Vanguard: 14.5 m/s walk, 30.96 m/s boost.
Boost Brawler: 11.5 m/s walk, 25.2 m/s boost.
Hydra Brawler: 15 m/s walk, 20.16 m/s boost.
Hydra Grenadier: 16 m/s walk, 23.76 m/s boost.

What's this_ The Boost Brawler is only 1.5 m/s faster than the Gren with gas, but becomes a slow pile of junk when it runs dry; even worse, a Hydra Brawler is slower than the Grenadier in both categories despite the investment.

In short, the Brawler is the slowest Mech in the game barring an exorbitant investment to compensate, at which point it is barely equal to alternatives. Suffice to say, this Mech is a slow piece of fuzzy bunny -- and while the buff was surely helpful, it is not a complete solution. Further adjustment is necessary.

[ThirdEyE]

FenixStryk, on December 13 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

In short, the Brawler is the slowest Mech in the game barring an exorbitant investment to compensate, at which point it is barely equal to alternatives. Suffice to say, this Mech is a slow piece of fuzzy bunny -- and while the buff was surely helpful, it is not a complete solution. Further adjustment is necessary.

Was talking with some clanmates about this earlier, and we kind of reached the same conclusion: it's slow as hell and needs something to compensate for it.

The solution isn't to just make it walk and/or boost even faster, otherwise it will simply take the place of the Vanguard as the dominant CQC C-class.  If you give it more armor, it may become nigh unkillable for a single person, which isn't all too fun to play against.

Brawler needs something, and I personally think significantly better base Suspensions would give it the slight edge it needs.  I'd even be willing to sacrifice some Weapons Loader and Armor for it.

[FuryMonster]

Ive played a few matches with it today and it seemed fine. Just dont use it on the big maps like Frontline / last eco and its goochi

Edited by FuryMonster, December 13 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Corpinator]

FuryMonster, on December 13 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

its goochi

[MexichanMan]

IMO, Brawler is one of the strongest mechs now. It can attain ridiculous hp and has one of the best weapons combos in the game. The only time it struggles is when mechs run away from it, or it gets caught out in the open at range. In a team setting the Brawler is really good at protecting low-hp allies from diving enemies because of its size.

Honestly, the only thing it needs now is a better ability. Other than that I think its good now.

Edited by MexichanMan, December 14 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[PhysicsCrime]

FenixStryk, on December 13 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Lots of text.

That's like saying rocketeer is not fast in the air or that Vanguard has rather poor mobility due to lack of fuel tank, generator and poor run speed.

The tuned stats do matter and do count, very much.

[IareDave]

It's more than just speed that makes a mech. I think you guys are forgetting it has the flak, arguably one of the best primaries in the game. And I find the brawler's turret mode to be the best out of all the heavies

[GantradiesDracos]

IareDave, on December 14 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

It's more than just speed that makes a mech. I think you guys are forgetting it has the flak, arguably one of the best primaries in the game. And I find the brawler's turret mode to be the best out of all the heavies

good GOD man, are you high off the fumes from a broken Generator_  Turret mode in general ius horrible, and since it the Brawler got hit with a nerf bat due to the Devs apparently playing a completely different game, its turret mode, allready the worst in the game, has become even weaker! only 10% damage reduction, takes double damage form explosive weapons regardless of hit location ( im looking at you EOC),  and the Health regen that was supposed to compensate for the poor defense bonus is now laughable, unless some BIG changes were made in the last hotfix

[GantradiesDracos]

guh. didn't mean to sound that hostile. i used to love the brawler, and.....