21 replies to this topic

[CounterlogicMan]

[font=Arial]This post is about team aspects of Hawken. These are my opinions only. [/font]

[font=Arial]These are my thoughts on current team oriented features:[/font]

[font=Arial]-The enemy spotted and the call for help features are very minimal and as such only play minimal roles in the average players game play. [/font]

[font=Arial]-Voice communication is not always reliable in Hawken and in a pub match you can’t always rely on it for teamwork. In competitive matches it only causes clutter on the comms because the only useful output for team related info is through voice. [/font]

[font=Arial]-There are no features that help teams strategize or organize before games other than team chat. [/font]

[font=Arial]-There is a lacking of preset team commands, waypoint commands, and no team structure to help guide players in combat. [/font]

[font=Arial]-Game modes tdm, ma, and siege need improvement to encourage more dynamic team play rather than blob, merry go round and camp respectively. (Siege has taken a very nice step forward in this aspect).[/font]

[font=Arial]These are some suggestions and ideas:[/font]

[font=Arial]-The duration of enemy spotted should be extended and should provide a little more useful information. On the main view of the HUD, the red highlight is tremendously helpful but I would like to see some more information about the mech that is spotted.[/font]

[font=Arial]-The call for assistance feature needs to be slightly extended and provide alerts not only on the minimap and via voice but display prominently on the main view of the HUD as well. [/font]

[font=Arial]On top of these minor improvements a more intuitive way to communicate, interpret and strategize with your team apart from voice comms, the q key, and the z key would greatly improve the experience. [/font]

[font=Arial]-Team player’s names mech icon and health indicated in a column on the right or left of your screen. Even using color changing on the mech icon to indicate health. Other useful things to indicate in this column(s) include ability cooldown (y/n_) items and their cooldowns (y/n). The mech icons being at the top of the screen isn't really all that helpful because all they show is the mech type and if they are alive or not.[/font]

[font=Arial]-Preset commands for all teammates to receive on their maps and main hud view. Things like, I need health, Priority target is this, Attack this position, Defend this position, Move to this position, Regroup, etc. Preset commands that only appear to teammates nearby to better organize combat on the macro and micro levels. Things like, follow me, fall back, incoming, hold position, etc. These messages should be displayed in text on the screen by the player who sends the message, on the map, and in someway on the main view area of the player receiving. [/font]

[font=Arial]-Adding more information about your teammates mechs (items, rank, tuning, etc) during pre match when team compositions are being chosen would be helpful in planning what mech to use. The ability to suggest team compositions would be nice too (for example: reaper, SS, brawler, tech, assault, assault). [/font]

[font=Arial]I hope my feedback is helpful and any comments or concerns with my prognosis are welcome. Thanks for reading if you made it this far.[/font]

[font="Arial"]Notes (touch on some of the things mentioned below): [/font]

[font="Arial"]1 - After further thinking through some of these points and reviewing some feedback, I think, and many others do as well, displaying info on the main view hud can be a fine line to walk. On one hand, in a game like Hawken you need all the information you can get, as quickly as you can get it, and then you need to be able to put that information to use just as quickly as you receive it. On the other hand, too much information can clutter or distract your view of whats going on in front of you, our attentions are already split enough between the cross hairs, peripheral, and map respectively would adding more info about spotted enemies or teammates in need clutter the screen too much_ Or would it provide information that could help you make tactically appropriate decisions in combat. [/font]

[font="Arial"]2 - Command rose - seems to be one of the more popular options out there, as it is the most commonly implemented. This could add to hud clutter, but could also add a safe familiarity with the team work dynamics. There could be a problem with implementing enough commands in a command rose without it becoming too cumbersome and difficult to use while near or in combat. [/font]

[font="Arial"]3 - Sylhiri's individual command system (scroll down)[/font][font=Arial] - This would be very nice in team play as it would allow one player to essential go first person commander mode for the squad. However, we would have to take a long look at how long it may take to issue a command to each player, and with how ttk will be going down in the next patch it may take as long to issue commands to a squad this way as it would for that squad to get killed. Would a command to an ally expire when he/she dies_ If so would it be worth it to have to re issue commands every 10 seconds because of inevitable deaths_ We need a command system that is just as fast paced as the game itself. Being able to issue commands to each player individual would be a nice addition to the map once full functionality to that feature is restored. Maybe even combine it with a notemap sort of thing like LoC_TR suggested. So when your squad leader spawns he can pull up the map and lay down some battle plans for the squad. (SS position on highway, Brawler under AA, Infils on top, use these attack paths, mark enemy attack routes, etc)[/font]

4 - Tribes system - It could be nice, but I am not experienced enough with the system to really comment on functionality. From first glance it seems very spam oriented and may lose its effectiveness the more it is used in game.

5 - How do you guys feel about this idea: You spot an enemy, via whatever system, a small mech icon pops up (with a small crosshair icon in the upper right to indicate if it is marked as a priority target), somehow it indicates health of the target and distance to target (maybe even time to intercept via straight line distance and max mech boost speed). On your main view the target is highlighted red like it is now and if there is an eliminate this target command on it there is a thin semi transparent rotating crosshair around it to indicate it is a priority target. If you are out of view of the mech in question and father than 150m (farther than most radars) an arrow at the peripheral of your screen points you in the general direction of the target. The mech remains highlighted on both main view and on the map as long as the mech is within pov of a teammate. If a target is marked as priority a quick command should come up, in the cockpit somewhere (dat immersion), with the prompts: affirmative, or negative. A small icon will appear next to the priority targets icon on the hud indicating which mechs are prioritizing the target, that way you can avoid over committing forces to a target.

When an ally calls for help an icon pops up much like the enemy spotted, it shows health and distance (maybe even calculate an estimated time to intercept via mech max boost speed and distance to, ofc then have robot voice lady announce it to you), on the main hud view there should be a blue arrow in the peripheral to indicate rough direction (if you are out of radar range). The ally should be highlighted blue much like spotted enemies are highlighted red. A quick command should come up with the prompts: affirmative, or negative. If you select affirmative an even smaller mech icon indicating your mech shows up next to the icon of the ally in need on your hud, it will be small and green, indicating you are coming to help. This allows you to see what sort of mechs if any going coming to help. If you are the one calling for help maybe even have a pop up visual/audio prompt indicating what type of mech, or who, is coming to help you and their estimated time to intercept. I feel this would give you a better idea of how long you need to stay alive or if you should disengage.

ex. (give it a mech AI feel) Oh god I need help ZZzzzZZZz, Xacius hits affirmative "Roger, ally notified, 15 seconds to intercept" , Robot lady - "Ally, 15 seconds to intercept, hang in their pilot". or Oh god I need help ZZZzzzZZZ, ropefish hits affirmative, "Roger, 45 seconds to intercept, make haste pilot allies in trouble", for me "Ally 45 seconds out, suggested pilot action: fall back". Always display the closest ally to intercept and then maybe a small list of times to intercept of allies coming to help in a small screen down in your cockpit.

Maybe to keep it organized, teammates icons show up on the right, enemies on the left, and to keep clutter down only use small semi transparent mech icons with names and distance (and maybe time to intercept) in small font, with color shading to indicate health. Better yet maybe even put all this information down in the cockpit on cool screens, like the awesome items screens_


I realize this is all very low on the priority lists of the devs but its a good discussion to have as it expands the list of ideas to draw from when the time comes to implement these kinds of features.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, February 02 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[Beefsweat]

CounterlogicMan, on December 14 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Team player’s names mech icon and health indicated in a column on the right or left of your screen. Even using color changing on the mech icon to indicate health. Other useful things to indicate in this column(s) include ability cooldown (y/n_) items and their cooldowns (y/n). The mech icons being at the top of the screen isn't really all that helpful because all they show is the mech type and if they are alive or not.

-Preset commands for all teammates to receive on their maps and main hud view. Things like, I need health, Priority target is this, Attack this position, Defend this position, Move to this position, Regroup, etc. Preset commands that only appear to teammates nearby to better organize combat on the macro and micro levels. Things like, follow me, fall back, incoming, hold position, etc. These messages should be displayed in text on the screen by the player who sends the message, on the map, and in someway on the main view area of the player receiving.

-Adding more information about your teammates mechs (items, rank, tuning, etc) during pre match when team compositions are being chosen would be helpful in planning what mech to use. The ability to suggest team compositions would be nice too (for example: reaper, SS, brawler, tech, assault, assault).

oh look, things I've personally been asking for SINCE ALPHA 2

[WarlordZ]

We actually used to have a waypoint order.  It was placed via the old tactical map, which was lost during the UI overhaul in the Ascension patch.  A lot of people have asked for a proper comm system, but I don't think we've ever gotten a reply on that.

[Preternatural]

So, in stratagy and tactics forum, you are saying there is no strategy or tactics involved in game_

But, in all seriousness, I completely agree with you. However, this game is still in a stage where 99% of players are either pros or complete noobs. With the fuzzy bunny matchmaking system we have know, having an entire patch dedicated to making this game more competitive would recieve tons of positive feedback and tons of negative feedback.

I, for one, am fine running around with my EOC Infil and blowing teams up from behind. I like playing just for fun atm. As I am around 1800 in MMR, I would like to be able to feel comfortable in "blob" MA, TDM, DM, and Siege matches before I even think about actually going up against pros in real-live competitive matches.

I really like your suggestions, bravo and +1 on that. You should maybe go open a Suggestion thread with those ideas you threw out there.

[SeasonzTZK]

I agrees!

[CounterlogicMan]

WarlordZ, on December 14 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

We actually used to have a waypoint order.  It was placed via the old tactical map, which was lost during the UI overhaul in the Ascension patch.  A lot of people have asked for a proper comm system, but I don't think we've ever gotten a reply on that.

Yes before ascension there was waypoint orders and even a map you could pull up. However pulling up the map made your mech stop so it was very impractical to use unless you were setting waypoints.

[erathic]

+ 1 for all ideas,

And especially this one :

CounterlogicMan, on December 14 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

-Preset commands for all teammates to receive on their maps and main hud view. Things like, I need health, Priority target is this, Attack this position, Defend this position, Move to this position, Regroup, etc. Preset commands that only appear to teammates nearby to better organize combat on the macro and micro levels. Things like, follow me, fall back, incoming, hold position, etc. These messages should be displayed in text on the screen by the player who sends the message, on the map, and in someway on the main view area of the player receiving.

a command rose would be helpful for tac, displayed when holding the spot key (for tactical commands) or the taunt key for taunts selection

old concept pic :

[Sylhiri]

Would be nice if you could press a numbered key that corresponds to each teammate where a tactical rose appears so you can give commands to that individual quickly. Say F1 or something was your Brawler, you can hold down the button and bring up the rose to give commands to the Brawler say Command [F1 - Hold] > Defend (press, switches to sub menu)> S1 (or other mechs). Of course you can have it so that different mechs have different commands on the rose, like heal for the tech.

So in about 2 seconds you can tell your teammate (brawler) to defend silo one. Since the command was only given to your Brawler it would reduce clutter (both visual and auditory). Of course you can still have a command rose that is general, commands to all mechs on your team as well.

When the map comes back you can have it give orders using a list on the side and switch between players using the F# as well, Bring up the map [M], [F1] (Brawler), click on a list like [Move] and click on the map. This would tell the Brawler to move to the area that you selected.

Edited by Sylhiri, December 15 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Exeon]

I'd rather see an adapted version of tribes VGS system(http://tribes.wikia....ice_Game_System)

Tribes is the first game I've ever played that has so much communication in pubs, all because its so quick and easy. The best part of VGS was the Compliment/Taunt/Global responses. When I first started playing tribes I found it hard to use but after a week it became second nature.

I like the idea of the command rose but it seems like it would be problematic causing you to lose control of your aim or forcing you to aim in an unfavorable direction.

[Kopra]

Exeon, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I'd rather see an adapted version of tribes VGS system(http://tribes.wikia....ice_Game_System)

Tribes is the first game I've ever played that has so much communication in pubs, all because its so quick and easy. The best part of VGS was the Compliment/Taunt/Global responses. When I first started playing tribes I found it hard to use but after a week it became second nature.

I like the idea of the command rose but it seems like it would be problematic causing you to lose control of your aim or forcing you to aim in an unfavorable direction.

VGS was the bomb. Tribes <3 Wouldn't mind Hawken having a similar system.

[eth0]

command rose plz

[dEd101]

I like the priority target idea the most: shoot this fuzzy bunny.

edit: the rest are awesome ideas as well

Edited by dEd101, December 16 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Dictatorfish]

Exeon, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I'd rather see an adapted version of tribes VGS system(http://tribes.wikia....ice_Game_System)

Tribes is the first game I've ever played that has so much communication in pubs, all because its so quick and easy. The best part of VGS was the Compliment/Taunt/Global responses. When I first started playing tribes I found it hard to use but after a week it became second nature.

I like the idea of the command rose but it seems like it would be problematic causing you to lose control of your aim or forcing you to aim in an unfavorable direction.

VVY
VVY
VVY
VGCY

Edited by Dictatorfish, December 18 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[CounterlogicMan]

Wasn't familiar with the Tribes system exeon mentioned at first but after looking through it I agree that something similar to that system would fit Hawken well. Especially given the depth of gameplay and the number of commands that would be needed to complement the gameplay may be too much for 1 2 or even 3 command rose.


Again thanks for the feedback guys.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, December 24 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Beerpriest]

I always hated the VGS system. I kept it muted most of the time. The command rose isn't a bad idea. In the end, voip is what is needed for teamwork.

[Amisto]

I would love to see an enemy information window pop up in right or left hand corner with enemy mech data when you mouse over an enemy and press a certain key, ie, when you spot an enemy it should pop up with a little picture of him and his health* most importantly, so people can focus targets better, this should be sent to teammates, this will allow better focus of targets.  Of course some ways to reduce spam of this will be needed, ie maybe a team leader function_ whoever has highest score on team get's the option to designate targets_  

Enemy priority target spotted!  Get'im boys!

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

use a teamspeak server for competition

pubs like me just have to suck it up and deal with general scrub nature of pub matches.  Sometimes you get a good team where everyone does things intuitively well and watches their radar and where all the blue chevrons are.  But most times people rename their mechs to YOLOSWAG420 and just run around and die to the other team which is inevitably better organized/mobbed up at a choke.

[X3P0]

There are some good general ideas here and I will try and add some feedback as well to better guide the thread.

As for the spotted functionality - it might be preferential for this to act a little more accordingly than to stick to any terrain or object in the way. For instance marking a target in the distance you could see some issues - seeing as you can mark the ground in front of you when nothing is actually there bringing up some false positives in gameplay. There have been circumstances where I have marked pillars or buildings to indicate someone is likely to take that particular path or appear there - but I cannot help but think the spotting systems in other titles have their advantages too. -Such as noting the exact location of the enemy for several seconds. I am uncertain whether the team has trouble coding this beyond its current implementation or if it is considered working as it was originally intended. Whether this is a priority or a tweak which could make the game a bit better is something I am not sure of - perhaps the current implementation is intended to allow for deeper gameplay and tactical use/flexibility in someones vision.

For voicechat it is not the worst I have ever seen in a game but I do not believe any game nails it. Improved voice chat would be a luxury and again would not strike me as a priority matter given the alternatives - Ventrillo, Teamspeak, Skype, Mumble. I realize these can only be implemented after you make the friends, after you rent the server in some cases - but I need to weigh this with the state of communications in just about any other free title and suggest it is unlikely to be that concerning to the team at this particular time.

As far as features to help strategically plan and organize prior to matches - In many games that offer functionality in this area it is likely not used. For instance in League of Legends - possibly the most played game hours/per month in the world, with a somewhat more useful rating system one could argue - A bit of information is available before a match and seldom do players at the highest tier climbing the ladders make any use of it. Instead rely on the fact that the four other players who also made challenger know there stuff and will be aware enough in the scene and in the players to guess what they will be playing - making the assumption the talents and runes - will make sense. In lower or more common matches many players do not speak a word and some times any planning which does occur is of little use. Games are about having fun and different people have ideas on what exactly is fun. - That being said I wonder if we would strategically plan before a match in a random public game where people come and go - where ones rating is determined more so on a personal basis - where matches do not require 30 minutes to an hour of play each and every match - where the competitive scene is really no where near as advanced or supported. Those are concerns that come to mind when I think how much use could come of it however, I believe that if it is an easy to implement change I do not know if I could foresee any harm coming from it.

Now the improvement to game modes or expansion of those modes - Oh this to me personally I would weigh very heavily in priority in relation to the previously noted bits.This is something the entire community could very well benefit from and I think this might just be something the team might have as a priority as well. There are some interesting ideas in other forum sections about what changes could help varying game modes and if anyone here has any ideas I implore you to put them on these forums. This directly affects the longevity and interest the general public will hold in the game and I agree very much that this is a top tier issue when thinking about the future. I specifically liked a players idea of introducing the capture the flag game mode. What we do know is Team Death Match currently dominates and other modes are rather barren in their playerbase - in comparison.

The command rose or otherwise mentioned emotes to communicate - This to me ranks higher than in game voice and is the practical implementation games have used in the past. I find it much simpler, much more useful and less obstructive to the player experience.
I cannot blast Van Halen over emotes. What I can do is issue general orders and commands for instance if I see something first - Fallback -> issued to the group so that they are now aware we are moving back the line and we do not lose a mech in the transition. I like the variety of emotes which could be created to cover a range of strategic movements and the ease of implementation after the ground work is set in. I would encourage the team to further develop this facet of gameplay before trying to figure out some voice chat solutions given the prevalence of third party solutions and the previously mentioned question of usefulness or what it adds to gameplay in several scenarios - Like when someone blasts their robotic techno.

Edited by X3P0, January 29 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[LoC_TR]

I'd like to see a game plan/notebook feature, such as a map that you can draw on. Also i believe levels in the map could be displayed better, if they haven't already, shade lower zones so you can see the difference better.

[dorobo]

The enemy spotted and the call for help... I found them very helpfull and play a major role in teamplay. I like how abstract and simple they are. I'm not sure I want graphs and stats and info poping out on my screen when im in the heat of the battle.
It would be nice to get direction indications of those calls while I repair so I can act without hesitation after i repair.

Edited by dorobo, January 30 2014 - 05:59 AM.