31 replies to this topic

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Wow, we really need to buff MMA and PPA badly then.  Heck, even Redox by itself is better than them.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on February 16 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

How about M4MA_  I hear that people are saying she's also underpowered as well.

The slow projectile speed makes it pretty worthless outside of Co-op. Makes it near impossible to use against zippy little A mechs, or any mech spamming dodges.

For reference, Mama's projectiles travel as slowly as the SAARE projectiles.

This is extremely problematic on a sustained weapon, where you need to chain hits. But what's often happening is that the large amount of lead you need means that you lost lots of damage because you simply can't adjust fast enough. It's physically impossible, unless you are a psychic who can see into the future and lead shots to places before your opponent makes an unpredictable move there.

Again, this is a problem because it's sustained, and not burst. When it's burst, you can wait for them to make the unpredictable movement, then hit them.

Also, the projectiles are stupidly hard to see. It gets really hard to judge where you need to lead because you often can't see them. This is a problem with the redox too.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, February 16 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Farlanghn]

What's sucks is the SAARE is SO easy to dodge! Being an A-class I would rather fight an incin more than any other C. If you are good at dodging you can get around most of its shots.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I know!  It needs to be faster, a freaking fireball shouldn't be easy to dodge.  I would also expect it to have at least a decent splash radius.

[Triskelion]

Rasti, on February 14 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

While I've not played with the Papa / Mama Bear, according to my buddy who was playing it while we tested the Incinerator, both those are pretty bad when compared to the default primary.

Papa B. apparently overheats in less than three seconds from what I've seen on his weapons, and the Mama B. fires so slowly that all it's dps vanishes into the void.

At least makes me glad I haven't spend any HC on those two weapons yet.

Precisely my experience thus far.

[GabeLoganNewell]

Yeah, the papa bear is a peice of fuzzy bunny. If you switched the fireball launcher to the secondary fire which takes a ton of heat to use and you kept spamming it the gun still overheats within a few seconds

[palad1ne]

After using the papabear two matches i Fall back to the babybear.

The long spin time and hard to control heat is not very helpful with this ttk.
Maybe in siege. But I spend so much attention to the heat generation that I cant react properly to the actual situation.
Even If play jihad mode only to pump up the heat before running into mechs. Its not use full.

Maybe there is some trick.

Good day

[FenixStryk]

Huh. I did write something out about this last night, but it slipped my mind to quote it here until just now.

Before I do so, I should state that I don't enjoy the Mech by any meaningful measure, and that I can say with 95% confidence that -- outside of the InkTech combination, where it becomes a serviceable never-ending Grenadier alternative -- I consider the Mech to be somewhere between mediocre and a piece of fuzz.

FenixStryk, on February 16 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Touched the Papa Bear just long enough to form an opinion on it:

I'm fairly sure this is the best weapon for the Incinerator in terms of increasing survivability; it has the highest "burst" sustained damage, sitting at a whopping 238 DPS. This is far beyond anything the Baby can hope to do consistently (161 DPS) and even higher than what Mini-Flak Van offers (176 DPS). Can you fire it forever_ No; but who in their right mind needs that sort of thing_

Thus far I have found that the sweet spot is three SAARE rotations to maintain heat, and a range of 0.75 to 3 seconds to keep Papa revving (typically, 1.4 seconds of movement followed by a single shot to reset the timer). The pattern seems to be: Rev Papa for 3 seconds -> [Papa Active] -> SAARE x3 -> [Inactive; evasion phase here] -> repeat from [Papa Active]. A 2 SAARE rotation is what you'll rely on in peek-a-boo, while a max of ~5 SAAREs with Papa firing is possible without overheating.

The best part about Papa is that you don't need to waste item slots on Heat Mines to enter Charged SAARE mode; you have it all the time. Admittedly, you'll be forced to suck on Papa's 3s rev-up time whenever you respawn, need to repair or need to lay low on radar^*, but in general there's no reason to be low on heat in any of these situations -- i.e., you still have your SAARE to cover you if you do get caught.

^*This is not the case. You can maintain partial rev during low-radar movement using audio cues, cutting it from ~4s to ~1s.

In summation: Yes, I think the Papa Bear is "viable". The Baby Bear may be able to keep going without thought, but sustained damage isn't really about saturating an area that no one is standing in; you don't need to fire all the time... which makes a lot of the Incinerator pointless since at that point, any sustained Mech does the job better. The Incinerator therefore should be chosen for heat absorption and redistribution purposes (SAARE application to the forehead), and not just to push buttons.

To be frank, I usually look for more than viability when I choose a Mech, but if that is the only measure you are going for then Papa will suffice.

Edited by FenixStryk, February 17 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[DFTR]

Nepacaka said the timing is start shooting papa continuously, fire 3 SAAR (AOE mode), stop shooting papa, fire 2 more SAAR, then repeat.  

I tried it in offline TDM and it works but still find it awkward b/c of the spin-up.
Also when you have allies/enemies close to you, have to adjust more or you overheat!

I think the Papa can be used as a hybrid-burst/sustained option.  I think a player w/ good aim can start spinning as he walks around the corner and wreck a mech w/ 130 DPS from just the Papa + 80x3 SAAR shots the last of which lands after you've dodged back into cover.  

If I were to main this mech, I think I would use Papa especially for DM.  
For playing w/ teammates especially in siege, it's crazy how much heat you absorb from them.  I literally had to keep shooting the SAAR continuously to avoid overheating in the AA w/ my team.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

In other words, this mech has a high skill ceiling.  Which is to be expected, the fact that it can take heat from teammates and enemies makes it so.  Having to adjust how much you use the SAARE and PPA/MMA while fighting on the fly is hard.  I'm still having trouble playing the thing.

FenixStryk, on February 17 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Huh. I did write something out about this last night, but it slipped my mind to quote it here until just now.

Before I do so, I should state that I don't enjoy the Mech by any meaningful measure, and that I can say with 95% confidence that -- outside of the InkTech combination, where it becomes a serviceable never-ending Grenadier alternative -- I consider the Mech to be somewhere between mediocre and a piece of fuzz.

FenixStryk, on February 16 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Touched the Papa Bear just long enough to form an opinion on it:

I'm fairly sure this is the best weapon for the Incinerator in terms of increasing survivability; it has the highest "burst" sustained damage, sitting at a whopping 238 DPS. This is far beyond anything the Baby can hope to do consistently (161 DPS) and even higher than what Mini-Flak Van offers (176 DPS). Can you fire it forever_ No; but who in their right mind needs that sort of thing_

Thus far I have found that the sweet spot is three SAARE rotations to maintain heat, and a range of 0.75 to 3 seconds to keep Papa revving (typically, 1.4 seconds of movement followed by a single shot to reset the timer). The pattern seems to be: Rev Papa for 3 seconds -> [Papa Active] -> SAARE x3 -> [Inactive; evasion phase here] -> repeat from [Papa Active]. A 2 SAARE rotation is what you'll rely on in peek-a-boo, while a max of ~5 SAAREs with Papa firing is possible without overheating.

The best part about Papa is that you don't need to waste item slots on Heat Mines to enter Charged SAARE mode; you have it all the time. Admittedly, you'll be forced to suck on Papa's 3s rev-up time whenever you respawn, need to repair or need to lay low on radar^*, but in general there's no reason to be low on heat in any of these situations -- i.e., you still have your SAARE to cover you if you do get caught.

^*This is not the case. You can maintain partial rev during low-radar movement using audio cues, cutting it from ~4s to ~1s.

In summation: Yes, I think the Papa Bear is "viable". The Baby Bear may be able to keep going without thought, but sustained damage isn't really about saturating an area that no one is standing in; you don't need to fire all the time... which makes a lot of the Incinerator pointless since at that point, any sustained Mech does the job better. The Incinerator therefore should be chosen for heat absorption and redistribution purposes (SAARE application to the forehead), and not just to push buttons.

To be frank, I usually look for more than viability when I choose a Mech, but if that is the only measure you are going for then Papa will suffice.

Man, you must have done a lot of testing to figure all of that out. o.o  I'll try out that combo, but it feels a bit too much to have on mind while trying to defend choke points or trying to survive a really desperate fight.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, February 17 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[motakudgi]

seems that PPA was designed for co-op game mode.
And the incinerator mech, too. It is very effective in destroying little flying targets with it's abiity.

Taking 4-5 heat upgrades (heat reduction 20-25%) make PPA vialbe: it doesn't overheat and let spam saare big projectiles.

Anyway, PPA is ok against B and C mechs, especially in cqc, and it's worst feature - 2,5 seconds delay.
Without delay, this weapon could be good in tdm.

[Frenotx]

I feel that the PPA is a bit too difficult to use in PvP, and insufficiently rewarding when you get it right. Between the (very) long spin up, the fact that even once spun up and firing, the firing speeds up a bit over time, the insane heat generation, and the difficult-to-predict-and-account-for heat absorption from other mechs, it is extremely easy to overheat. The gun doesn't need much to make it a little more useful, but as it stands, it just isn't worth it, imo.

Any one of the following would make a world of difference:
1) Shorter spin up
2) Constant speed once spun up
3) Less heat
4) No heat absorb once you're past a certain heat threshold (80%_)

Edited by Frenotx, February 18 2014 - 09:04 AM.