49 replies to this topic

[Dementalist]

There has been a number of threads about the Scout class being overpowered, so I thought I would start my own thread about it and why it imbalances the game.

It is completely logical that the Scout class should be a glass cannon, having a low number of hitpoints but doing whole lot of damage. But it is also completely irrational because of the maneuverability that the Scout class is given. I think most players who are average or better will attest that the class is near impossible to hit especially during clutch situations in Deathmatch mode. The class glaringly imbalances the game for everybody in Deathmatch mode.

It is not a matter of me personally being unable to frag players who use the Scout class, but it is a matter of everybody having limited success against it in Deathmatch mode.

The screenshot I have uploaded depicts a typical example of what the outcome of a Deathmatch session looks like whenever a Scout player joins it. This example has repeated itself at least seven times within the last two days, and I do not play Hawken very often to begin with. Practically nobody can beat it.

From my standpoint, the Scout class is only overpowered because of the relative ineffectiveness of machine guns and assault rifles. Hitting it with a rocket is, for the most part, out of the equation because of the class's uncanny leverage with maneuverability, which it can use to typically flank a player with the...flak cannon type weapon that it has, dealing massive amounts of damage whilst avoiding return fire.

The proper fix should be to increase the damage of machine guns and assault rifles, perhaps on a per-mech basis. The submachine gun and assault rifle should deal more damage depending on how armored the class is. The heavier classes should have the greatest defense but deal the least damage with machine guns and assault rifles while the lighter classes should have the least defense but deal greater damage with machine guns and assault rifles. The Scout class has a flak cannon type weapon already, so it would be unnecessary to amplify its damage.

I reiterate:

The heavier the class, the lower the damage it deals. The lighter the class, the more damage it should deal.

Currently the problem is that assault rifles and machine guns do the same damage regardless of mech. As one who plays the Berserker class, I have no problems against Vanguard and Assault, but I always lose against Scout.

I understand this game is in beta and I understand it has a lot of room for improvement. I would ask that the developers consider this logic going forward. These issues are not immediately clear in Team Deathmatch, where the underprivilege of certain classes is generally overshadowed by the success of more privileged classes on their respective teams. Case in point, if somebody comes in with a Vanguard mech and your team "appears" to be doing well, you may not notice the discrepancies. But in Deathmatch, the discrepancies become very clear.

Awesome game, but it could be a bit more fair, especially in Deathmatch.

Attached Files

•  scout_imbalanced.jpg   124.71K   300 downloads

[FakeName]

Maybe it's because this guy is lv 30 .. has much experience ... and an overall much higher MMR ....

[WarlordZ]

Scout feels pretty balanced, I think you just got stomped because SkyeBeats plays a pretty good scout.  Faster mechs are particularly good at stomping less skilled players because said players have a hard time against fast-moving targets.

Besides, I use automatic weapons on most of my main mechs, and they feel pretty strong right now.  I think any more buffing could actually be a problem.

[Eman29]

your proposed solution is a joke.
Buff sustained weapons even more_

Lighter mechs doing more damage than C mechs_
what am I reading...

[Dementalist]

This isn't about one particular player, but the class in general. The outcome of the match looks virtually identical everytime any Scout player of almost any level joins a Deathmatch session. "Maybe he's just good" is not a reason when barely anybody can get a kill against the class itself, not the player.

The game as it stands is adequately balanced for Team Deathmatch, but not Deathmatch. Every mech is supposed to serve a different role. It has been my experience that the heaviest and lightest mechs do the best in Deathmatch while the middle classes do the worst, that being because the middle classes are designed mostly for complimentary roles.

I am an experienced FPS player, and I can tell you many of these people do not possess "gifted" aim or predicted aim, but are leant an unfair advantage by the weapons that they are using. In theory, one should not engage the Scout class head on because of that flak cannon type weapon it has, but it's hard to get a jump on the Scout class in Deathmatch, especially when there aren't very many players in the round and you don't have the element of surprise.

Edited by Dementalist, March 05 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[nokari]

I like how every day there's something thing X is overpowered and then the very next day someone says X isn't powerful enough. The Scout is fine. Your match had very little to do with SkyeBeats using Scout, because he's a very skilled player and that's why he dominated. He was also probably in a lower MMR match (I assume because there weren't other DM matches to join), which is also why he stomped everyone else.

I take this as a sign of player imbalance, not mech imbalance.

[Dementalist]

In Team Deathmatch, Scout is no problem. It cannot take advantage of single mechs because of the presence of team members.

[Dementalist]

nokari, on March 05 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

I like how every day there's something thing X is overpowered and then the very next day someone says X isn't powerful enough. The Scout is fine. Your match had very little to do with SkyeBeats using Scout, because he's a very skilled player and that's why he dominated. He was also probably in a lower MMR match (I assume because there weren't other DM matches to join), which is also why he stomped everyone else.

I take this as a sign of player imbalance, not mech imbalance.

The alternative is to leave the game as it is and to let minority opinion rule it. Unless you situate that player, SkyBeats, in the same mech class as other players, there is no legitimacy in claiming he's just a really good player.

Pistol versus shotgun. No places to take cover. Who's going to win_

[Rocky1822]

Good sir, look at your ping difference in the screenshot...

[Dementalist]

My problem is with the class itself, not with that player. I could not care less that he won.This isn't about winning or losing. It's about fair versus unfair. Overprivilege versus underprivilege.

Edited by Dementalist, March 05 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[nokari]

Dementalist, on March 05 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

that being because the middle classes are designed mostly for complimentary roles.

3 out of 5 C-class are support mechs.
1 out of 7 B-class are support mechs. (2 if you consider Predator a support type)
2 out of 5 A-class are support mechs.

Quote

I am an experienced FPS player, and I can tell you many of these people do not possess "gifted" aim or predicted aim, but are leant an unfair advantage by the weapons that they are using. In theory, one should not engage the Scout class head on because of that flak cannon type weapon it has, but it's hard to get a jump on the Scout class in Deathmatch, especially when there aren't very many players in the round and you don't have the element of surprise.

Flak weapons are available on more than just the Scout; on much higher armor mechs, and not every Scout player uses the Flak weapons either.

In Deathmatch, all players have equal chance at the element of surprise, certainly not just Scouts.

Edited by nokari, March 05 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[Dementalist]

How then, in your opinion, should a Berserker class approach the Scout class in one-on-one situations_ I'm open to new ideas.

[caduceus26]

Dementalist, on March 05 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

How then, in your opinion, should a Berserker class approach the Scout class in one-on-one situations_ I'm open to new ideas.

Re: This and your original post:

Playing against one of the best players in the game is your first challenge.  I've played with and against this pilot and in 1v1 situations, "with" has always been more profitable for me than "against."

I also think the Scout needs some tweaking to bring it more in line and as you indicated, there have been numerous threads on the "OP"'ness of the Scout. However, changing weapon damage from fixed to variable based on  mech class makes no sense to me at all.

Just as a suggestion (not that it will make one a superstar against top-tier players--skill does that) you may want to take a look at "Leon's Guide to Dealing with Scouts" (link below).  This was written by another top-tier player and contains some practical suggestions to improving gameplay against A classes in general and Scouts in particular.  This guide was posted pre-Steam before the TTK and armor adjustments but the principles should apply.  Good luck!

https://community.pl...ng-with-scouts/

Edited by caduceus26, March 05 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[n3onfx]

Dementalist, on March 05 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

How then, in your opinion, should a Berserker class approach the Scout class in one-on-one situations_ I'm open to new ideas.

In the open. I play Scout and while playing peekaboo with a Zerker is easy, meeting one out where he can jump and you can't hide quickly is a lot harder. Scouts hit hard but slow and die quickly.

Running into one somewhere he can hide is bad news but that's what the Scout is made for, hit & hide.

edit: Also don't try and get fancy with air dodging above a Scout. I see so many Zerkers try that tactic that while very effective against other mechs, sucks against Scouts. The farther the better, Flak cannon gets worse the farther you are, keep a healthy distance.

Edited by n3onfx, March 05 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Greenvalv]

Dementalist, that guy is SkyeBeats... you got handed your rears legitimately.  It wasn't the mech that was OP.

[Dementalist]

caduceus26, on March 05 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Dementalist, on March 05 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

How then, in your opinion, should a Berserker class approach the Scout class in one-on-one situations_ I'm open to new ideas.

Re: This and your original post:

Playing against one of the best players in the game is your first challenge.  I've played with and against this pilot and in 1v1 situations, "with" has always been more profitable for me than "against."

I also think the Scout needs some tweaking to bring it more in line and as you indicated, there have been numerous threads on the "OP"'ness of the Scout. However, changing weapon damage from fixed to variable based on  mech class makes no sense to me at all.

Just as a suggestion (not that it will make one a superstar against top-tier players--skill does that) you may want to take a look at "Leon's Guide to Dealing with Scouts" (link below).  This was written by another top-tier player and contains some practical suggestions to improving gameplay against A classes in general and Scouts in particular.  This guide was posted pre-Steam before the TTK and armor adjustments but the principles should apply.  Good luck!

https://community.pl...ng-with-scouts/

Thank you for this guide, but with all due respect to its author, it seems entirely anecdotal and it lacks specifics. It does not even address how to deal with the Scout class with the class you are currently using. Based on the context in which it was written, I have to assume he was using either the Assault mech or the Vanguard, both of which have fared better against the Scout than the Berserker has, based on my own experience.

I can take out Scouts just fine if I use the Assault or Vanguard classes, thanks to their greater hitpoints, but the Berserker class seems to have no chance.

There are discrepancies between the classes, and I wish more people would recognize that it isn't entirely dependent on personal skill.

Edited by Dementalist, March 05 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[Claxus]

Scout's fine, I think. I used to be in the same boat as you, thinking they were pretty above the rest. I realized that the Scout is just the best at what it does, doing decisive damage. It's still frail, and bulkier mechs counter it, just like it counters lower armor mechs. You just get used to it, learn to fight the Scout and it's not that bad. It also has an ability that is only good for survival, rather than helping in actual combat like most mechs.

I'm gonna say, though, forget about Deathmatch. My opinion, of course, but I think there's even some truth to saying that DM is just not for this game. It's like throwing in mages and warriors and healers into a big PvP pit. Which class do you think will usually come up on top and get all the kills_ Hawken despite being a shooter is just as class-based. A Scout's finishing power and speed to do so will usually dominate a DM, in a game really meant for teamwork.

[Krellus]

Rocky1822, on March 05 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Good sir, look at your ping difference in the screenshot...

precisely this. if theres anything a scout likes, its poor ping opponents. poor ping killed half the scoreboard. plus he level 30, just more experienced. and scouts love DM more than any other mode. in combo, stomp. he prolly should have left the server, really.

Edited by Krellus, March 05 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[RedVan]

If average of better players find scout near impossible to hit, the avg is way too low.  I will say though, that simply isn't true.  I see many avg or better players hitting scouts just fine.

[RadimentriX]

"assault rifles and machine guns should make more dmg"... uhm.. no.