49 replies to this topic

[Stingz]

DM is the Scout's playground, A-class is their food.

Claxus, on March 05 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Scout's fine, I think. I used to be in the same boat as you, thinking they were pretty above the rest. I realized that the Scout is just the best at what it does, doing decisive damage. It's still frail, and bulkier mechs counter it, just like it counters lower armor mechs. You just get used to it, learn to fight the Scout and it's not that bad. It also has an ability that is only good for survival, rather than helping in actual combat like most mechs.

I'm gonna say, though, forget about Deathmatch. My opinion, of course, but I think there's even some truth to saying that DM is just not for this game. It's like throwing in mages and warriors and healers into a big PvP pit. Which class do you think will usually come up on top and get all the kills_ Hawken despite being a shooter is just as class-based. A Scout's finishing power and speed to do so will usually dominate a DM, in a game really meant for teamwork.

Getting a scout for yourself you notice their weakness quite easily if there's competent players in TDM/Siege/MA.
Siege especially is where A-Class stop dominating, AA defence dosen't happen without heavier mechs that can take hits.

Edited by Stingz, March 05 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Dementalist]

I took the advice of some of you and tried playing on USWest servers today, since USWest servers are more local to me. I had a lower ping, and the timing was indeed a bit better. Scouts were still running through the middle classes, though. I had success against Scouts when I used heavier classes.

I think this might be a situation where Scout simply has Berserker's number, but is weaker against classes that can better withstand its flak damage.

I will make an effort to try other mech classes along the way. Hopefully, if anyone is interested, I can write about my findings.

[FirstRaven]

Scout is not OP- get one and level it all the way up and then revisit what you're saying.
Incinerator is op, but it's new, so not quite balanced yet. Beserker is OP, though not by much.
Overall, the game is quite well balanced, but think of it as the ultimate in rock, paper, scissors;
Scout trumps beserker ("all things being equal", i.e; equally skilled pilots).
Bloody infiltrators get my Reaper all the darn time.
Funny how the second lowest HP mech (and not by much) is always being called OP-
it's the skill of the pilot. A Good Scout pilot can literally run circles around anyone,
but conserving your fuel, timing the mech ability correctly and having ridiculous fire control (fastest overheating weapons by far in the game) make it difficult to pilot and master. Conversely, Beserker is the easiest A-Class to pilot.

Dementalist, are you using an air compressor and air 180 internals_
Beserkers without at least an air compressor are cannon fodder for all!
I just love it when they fly up and down in a straight line...
hit the ground in pieces everytime.

Most Beserker pilots like to kite/stay airborne. The Air 180 helps signifigantly against Scouts particularly-
You need all the maneuverability you can get going against a Scout.

Edited by FirstRaven, March 05 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Dementalist]

FirstRaven, on March 05 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Scout is not OP- get one and level it all the way up and then revisit what you're saying.
Incinerator is op, but it's new, so not quite balanced yet. Beserker is OP, though not by much.
Overall, the game is quite well balanced, but think of it as the ultimate in rock, paper, scissors;
Scout trumps beserker ("all things being equal", i.e; equally skilled pilots).
Bloody infiltrators get my Reaper all the darn time.
Funny how the second lowest HP mech (and not by much) is always being called OP-
it's the skill of the pilot. A Good Scout pilot can literally run circles around anyone,
but conserving your fuel, timing the mech ability correctly and having ridiculous fire control (fastest overheating weapons by far in the game) make it difficult to pilot and master. Conversely, Beserker is the easiest A-Class to pilot.

Dementalist, are you using an air compressor and air 180 internals_
Beserkers without at least an air compressor are cannon fodder for all!
I just love it when they fly up and down in a straight line...
hit the ground in pieces everytime.

Most Beserker pilots like to kite/stay airborne. The Air 180 helps signifigantly against Scouts particularly-
You need all the maneuverability you can get going against a Scout.

Not using an air compressor yet. I noticed that it can only be unlocked by paying for it, currently. Being able to dodge in the air would help a ton.

[OmegaNull]

Here we go again... Learn to aim and hit...

I know many average or even below average players that can kill a scout without issues.

In the end it all comes down to pilot skill and can you actually hit something. There is nothing that aiming and counter-play cannot compensate for. However, with that comes experience to know how to counter that.

The mech is not over powered, it is the pilot. If you cannot hit them, they are doing their job and moving and you need to follow, aim, and time things better. Also, you cannot very easily when corner battles with the scout.

Edited by OmegaNull, March 06 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Alfajk]

imo scout is definitely not op,one hit from sniper/rocket and scout is down,high dmg and squishy body are OK

[OmegaNull]

Yep

[mittens800]

Dementalist...

Scout is not OP but if said scout is being piloted by a really good pilot... it's hard.

If you wanna counter, you can try a few things:

1) Play scout.  You will probably die a lot.  Get better.  Then think about why you keep getting blown up and use those tactics.
2) Beserker: first of all, you're doing it wrong.  Don't be in a tight area, if so, get out of there.  Beserker is great where it can fly around and the scout has a harder time reaching it.  In the mean time, you can pelt it with SMC and TOWs until it's gone.  
3) Assault.  Like a zerker but with more HP.  Don't fly around as much, but you can take more TOW hits.
4) Infil with AR - like zerker and assault.  Fly around, hit with automatics and make sure you land your secondaries and you should be fine.

If you are landing your shots, you will win.  IF YOU KEEP MISSING YOUR TOW/GL THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU WILL DIE IF YOU KEEP GETTING HIT BY TOWS.

Scout does most damage with flak IN YOUR FACE.  Don't let this happen.  Try to keep it at mid range where sustained will do more damage than the flak.  When you play scout you will see it's not that easy.

It's easy to die if:

- You get hit with a TOW first.  You better dodge the next one and not miss your secondaries
- You are in a peekaboo area without a peekaboo mech.  Y U NO LEAVE AREA_!_!_!
- You like to get kited by scout by following it around and getting towed in the face.

Mitten's rules of dealing with scouts:
- GET IN THE OPEN or at least open-er area where you can fly and there's no cover for scout.
- DO NOT MISS your secondaries.  2 Tows/GL and some AR and you're good.  Fire after the dodge... if you fire before/when they dodge then you're digging your own grave, regardless of mech.
- DON'T GET KITED.
- Get the first Secondary shot.  IF scout doesn't see you, why are you shooting it with SMC when you can hit it with a nice big fat TOW...

Can I follow all my own rules_  No because I'm not that good

Edited by mittens800, March 06 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[FirstRaven]

There is a post somewhere on the forums about "getting in the zone".
It's rather thought provoking, but here's what works for me:

1) Keep Moving-
a) do NOT stay still
do NOT move in a predictable way (this includes flying around w/o a compressor! just a straight line makes for an easy target)
2) Know the Map you're on-
a) use Cover
use distance to your advantage (either close or far, depending on the mech you're in and/or the one you're fighting)
3) Aim First!!!!
4) Then FIRE.
5) Ergonomics-
a) pay attention to your posture
set up your controls so they have a logical, natural flow for you (which for me was reassigning the &@#% 180 spin button)
6) Good Music (not all music you like is Good for playing Hawken, find the tunes you like that are; for me, Django seems to work best)
7) Most Important: Keep a Good Attitude!!! Don't get miffed or frustrated- you're like a cylon when playing Hawken; each death is a learning experience.

Like mittens, I don't always follow all of my own rules, but when I do, I rank in the top every time.
Also, like mittens said, if you find yourself getting obliterated by the same type of mech over and over, get one and level it up- know your enemies weaknesses as well as their strengths.

Cheers!

Edited by FirstRaven, March 06 2014 - 02:27 PM.

[OmegaNull]

mittens800, on March 06 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Dementalist...

Scout is not OP but if said scout is being piloted by a really good pilot... it's hard.

If you wanna counter, you can try a few things:

1) Play scout.  You will probably die a lot.  Get better.  Then think about why you keep getting blown up and use those tactics.
2) Beserker: first of all, you're doing it wrong.  Don't be in a tight area, if so, get out of there.  Beserker is great where it can fly around and the scout has a harder time reaching it.  In the mean time, you can pelt it with SMC and TOWs until it's gone.  
3) Assault.  Like a zerker but with more HP.  Don't fly around as much, but you can take more TOW hits.
4) Infil with AR - like zerker and assault.  Fly around, hit with automatics and make sure you land your secondaries and you should be fine.

If you are landing your shots, you will win.  IF YOU KEEP MISSING YOUR TOW/GL THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU WILL DIE IF YOU KEEP GETTING HIT BY TOWS.

Scout does most damage with flak IN YOUR FACE.  Don't let this happen.  Try to keep it at mid range where sustained will do more damage than the flak.  When you play scout you will see it's not that easy.

It's easy to die if:

- You get hit with a TOW first.  You better dodge the next one and not miss your secondaries
- You are in a peekaboo area without a peekaboo mech.  Y U NO LEAVE AREA_!_!_!
- You like to get kited by scout by following it around and getting towed in the face.

Mitten's rules of dealing with scouts:
- GET IN THE OPEN or at least open-er area where you can fly and there's no cover for scout.
- DO NOT MISS your secondaries.  2 Tows/GL and some AR and you're good.  Fire after the dodge... if you fire before/when they dodge then you're digging your own grave, regardless of mech.
- DON'T GET KITED.
- Get the first Secondary shot.  IF scout doesn't see you, why are you shooting it with SMC when you can hit it with a nice big fat TOW...

Can I follow all my own rules_  No because I'm not that good

I was too lazy to wright that. >.> But you are right on the money. Though there are a few little things a scout can do to avoid SOME of those things.

[Dementalist]

mittens800, on March 06 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Dementalist...

Scout is not OP but if said scout is being piloted by a really good pilot... it's hard.

If you wanna counter, you can try a few things:

1) Play scout.  You will probably die a lot.  Get better.  Then think about why you keep getting blown up and use those tactics.
2) Beserker: first of all, you're doing it wrong.  Don't be in a tight area, if so, get out of there.  Beserker is great where it can fly around and the scout has a harder time reaching it.  In the mean time, you can pelt it with SMC and TOWs until it's gone.  
3) Assault.  Like a zerker but with more HP.  Don't fly around as much, but you can take more TOW hits.
4) Infil with AR - like zerker and assault.  Fly around, hit with automatics and make sure you land your secondaries and you should be fine.

If you are landing your shots, you will win.  IF YOU KEEP MISSING YOUR TOW/GL THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU WILL DIE IF YOU KEEP GETTING HIT BY TOWS.

Scout does most damage with flak IN YOUR FACE.  Don't let this happen.  Try to keep it at mid range where sustained will do more damage than the flak.  When you play scout you will see it's not that easy.

It's easy to die if:

- You get hit with a TOW first.  You better dodge the next one and not miss your secondaries
- You are in a peekaboo area without a peekaboo mech.  Y U NO LEAVE AREA_!_!_!
- You like to get kited by scout by following it around and getting towed in the face.

Mitten's rules of dealing with scouts:
- GET IN THE OPEN or at least open-er area where you can fly and there's no cover for scout.
- DO NOT MISS your secondaries.  2 Tows/GL and some AR and you're good.  Fire after the dodge... if you fire before/when they dodge then you're digging your own grave, regardless of mech.
- DON'T GET KITED.
- Get the first Secondary shot.  IF scout doesn't see you, why are you shooting it with SMC when you can hit it with a nice big fat TOW...

Can I follow all my own rules_  No because I'm not that good

I agree with this to an extent. But keep in mind, the same players that would seem unbeatable when faced with certain classes (e.g. Berserker) are easily beaten by other classes, such as Vanguard. I have noted this for a fact by playing against players who would be seemingly incredibly skilled as Scouts. But looking at it more closely, I have found that certain classes are disadvantaged against other classes, especially in Deathmatch.

For example, I find that Berserker does poorly against Scout. How it would do with the air compressor internal mod, I don't know, as I have not purchased it.

But Scout does poorly against Vanguard and is evenly matched by Assault.

I did not start this thread to say there were players I could not beat. I wrote the thread in hopes of highlighting a problem with class discrepancies. I am probably at fault for not being more clear in my point, as many of the replies here seem to suggest I have been somehow perplexed by the skill of some players. I take responsibility if that is the case.

[palad1ne]

Thats why everyone plays assault now.

[mrvile]

Deathmatch in this game is a spectacle, as it should be. The mechs in this game are designed for team play, not free-for-all scenarios, so there are going to be major balance discrepancies between the mechs in Deathmatch. If you want to dominate in Deathmatch, play Scout with skill because its primary mechanics give it the advantage in 1v1. In TDM and most other game types, however, I haven't noticed any real problem with Scouts other than the fact that I've run into a number of very skilled Scout pilots, which I respect.

[Stingz]

Dementalist, on March 06 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

I agree with this to an extent. But keep in mind, the same players that would seem unbeatable when faced with certain classes (e.g. Berserker) are easily beaten by other classes, such as Vanguard. I have noted this for a fact by playing against players who would be seemingly incredibly skilled as Scouts. But looking at it more closely, I have found that certain classes are disadvantaged against other classes, especially in Deathmatch.

For example, I find that Berserker does poorly against Scout. How it would do with the air compressor internal mod, I don't know, as I have not purchased it.

But Scout does poorly against Vanguard and is evenly matched by Assault.

I did not start this thread to say there were players I could not beat. I wrote the thread in hopes of highlighting a problem with class discrepancies. I am probably at fault for not being more clear in my point, as many of the replies here seem to suggest I have been somehow perplexed by the skill of some players. I take responsibility if that is the case.

Been on both sides, Scout tears open Zerkers easily unless the Zerker jumps Scout in the open.

Flak/TOW is just perfect for dueling opponents since your aim matters more than the opponents mobility.
Air dodge means little since Flak/TOW does so much burst damage in a short time.

Edited by Stingz, March 07 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Nosmer]

 2014-03-07_00001.jpg   72.77K   33 downloads
Scout not OP_ Really_ There was 4 scouts in this game. The fourth switched in the end. Scout is bad in teamfights_ Any mec pops in 1v3/1v4/1v5 etc. Fight scout in the open_ But he's not following you, he's either capping on MA or behind his teammates in TDM. And he absolutley dominates DM. Scout is an ultimate and undoubtful OP, period.

Edited by Nosmer, March 07 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Dementalist]

I've noticed Scout losing to Assault and Vanguard, or anything with enough hitpoints to withstand Scout's damage. The Scout class can only strafe so many times while sustaining fire, so it collapses quite easily, in my finding, when up against those two mechs. As Stingz said above, though, Scout will annihilate Berserker very easily unless Berserker can get a jump on it, which is improbable in Deathmatch.

Edited by Dementalist, March 07 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Dementalist]

mrvile, on March 07 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Deathmatch in this game is a spectacle, as it should be. The mechs in this game are designed for team play, not free-for-all scenarios, so there are going to be major balance discrepancies between the mechs in Deathmatch. If you want to dominate in Deathmatch, play Scout with skill because its primary mechanics give it the advantage in 1v1. In TDM and most other game types, however, I haven't noticed any real problem with Scouts other than the fact that I've run into a number of very skilled Scout pilots, which I respect.

Agreed. Some classes will beat others and some classes are especially weak against others. I am finding that out the hard way as I go.

[OmegaNull]

Dementalist, on March 06 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

mittens800, on March 06 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Dementalist...

Scout is not OP but if said scout is being piloted by a really good pilot... it's hard.

If you wanna counter, you can try a few things:

1) Play scout.  You will probably die a lot.  Get better.  Then think about why you keep getting blown up and use those tactics.
2) Beserker: first of all, you're doing it wrong.  Don't be in a tight area, if so, get out of there.  Beserker is great where it can fly around and the scout has a harder time reaching it.  In the mean time, you can pelt it with SMC and TOWs until it's gone.  
3) Assault.  Like a zerker but with more HP.  Don't fly around as much, but you can take more TOW hits.
4) Infil with AR - like zerker and assault.  Fly around, hit with automatics and make sure you land your secondaries and you should be fine.

If you are landing your shots, you will win.  IF YOU KEEP MISSING YOUR TOW/GL THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU WILL DIE IF YOU KEEP GETTING HIT BY TOWS.

Scout does most damage with flak IN YOUR FACE.  Don't let this happen.  Try to keep it at mid range where sustained will do more damage than the flak.  When you play scout you will see it's not that easy.

It's easy to die if:

- You get hit with a TOW first.  You better dodge the next one and not miss your secondaries
- You are in a peekaboo area without a peekaboo mech.  Y U NO LEAVE AREA_!_!_!
- You like to get kited by scout by following it around and getting towed in the face.

Mitten's rules of dealing with scouts:
- GET IN THE OPEN or at least open-er area where you can fly and there's no cover for scout.
- DO NOT MISS your secondaries.  2 Tows/GL and some AR and you're good.  Fire after the dodge... if you fire before/when they dodge then you're digging your own grave, regardless of mech.
- DON'T GET KITED.
- Get the first Secondary shot.  IF scout doesn't see you, why are you shooting it with SMC when you can hit it with a nice big fat TOW...

Can I follow all my own rules_  No because I'm not that good

I agree with this to an extent. But keep in mind, the same players that would seem unbeatable when faced with certain classes (e.g. Berserker) are easily beaten by other classes, such as Vanguard. I have noted this for a fact by playing against players who would be seemingly incredibly skilled as Scouts. But looking at it more closely, I have found that certain classes are disadvantaged against other classes, especially in Deathmatch.

For example, I find that Berserker does poorly against Scout. How it would do with the air compressor internal mod, I don't know, as I have not purchased it.

But Scout does poorly against Vanguard and is evenly matched by Assault.

I did not start this thread to say there were players I could not beat. I wrote the thread in hopes of highlighting a problem with class discrepancies. I am probably at fault for not being more clear in my point, as many of the replies here seem to suggest I have been somehow perplexed by the skill of some players. I take responsibility if that is the case.

If a berserker keeps their range, a Scout has their ass torn to shreds by a hail of metal.
Also, Scouts CAN be a Vanguard if doing corner play but not hid on. If using Heat Cannon, the scout can easily win. Though vanguard is still a really hard mech to kill anyways...

Assault is a strong class. I hate going against Assaults (good ones) in a scout. But again, corner-play is their weekness and a scout's strength (as far as Flak Scout goes).

[RedVan]

Nosmer, on March 07 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

2014-03-07_00001.jpg
Scout not OP_ Really_ There was 4 scouts in this game. The fourth switched in the end. Scout is bad in teamfights_ Any mec pops in 1v3/1v4/1v5 etc. Fight scout in the open_ But he's not following you, he's either capping on MA or behind his teammates in TDM. And he absolutley dominates DM. Scout is an ultimate and undoubtful OP, period.

If a screenshot of multiple same type mechs topping the scoreboard is all it takes to call something OP, then I suppose all mechs are OP, because I've seen it all.

[Farlanghn]

Dementalist, on March 05 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

How then, in your opinion, should a Berserker class approach the Scout class in one-on-one situations_ I'm open to new ideas.

That's funny you say this because I think bezerkers are OP to a certain extent. Think about it
1) you get a damage boost ability! And it lasts way too long.
2) With the sustained weapon like the Vulcan (which is OP in its self) and just 1 or 2 well placed tows, you well destroy a scout with 320hp.

Me personally, I am the type of gamer that tries to stay away from classes that everyone plays as. Bezerkers are I feel the most played classes in the game. They are easy to play. The machine guns you never really have to aim with and that hard hitting tow.

Just because he is beating you doesn't mean the class needs to be nerfed. You even said that you really don't play that often. Maybe that's why he was kicking your ass_ Some of these guys play way too much! You just have to give it to the better player.