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Incinerator is way too easy to counter.


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#1 Aetrion

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Posted March 09 2014 - 11:40 PM

So I've logged about 20 hours piloting an Incinerator now, got all the weapons unlocked, and got pretty good at using it. Basically what I find is that this mech is the ultimate noob / bot stomper, but absolutely incapable of dealing with skilled players because it's just way too easy to counter everything it does for someone who knows how.

The weapon choices:

BBY - The starting gun, pretty solid all around, but produces too little heat to keep those big fireballs cranking. The spinup time on this thing is manageable, but I feel really silly walking around while firing it into the air just to keep my damage ramped.

PPA - This weapon is too difficult to control, plain and simple. Even if you're shooting big fireballs as quickly as they will come out this weapon will overheat if you don't burst fire it. You need to keep a steady rythm to keep this gun going, which can very easily get messed up if a friendly with a high heat weapon walks near you and dumps some extra degrees on you. You also have to constantly nurse this guns spin up, which is just stupid.

M4MA - This weapon is IMO the most fun on this mech, because it has just the right amount of heat generation where you can shoot fireballs very quickly, but not so quick that you need to constantly let up firing to stop your mech from overheating. The problem is that with this gun on your mech people can basically render your entire arsenal useless by hitting their space bar. This gun also applies a status effect to your opponent that makes them generate more heat, but it's hardly noticeable for mechs that have decent heat management.

None of these weapons are really worthy of being called a chaingun. Their rate of fire is extremely unimpressive for a rotary gun, their damage isn't overly impressive when compared to weapons like the assault rifle or sub machine gun either. The fact that you have to shoot them wildly into the air or tease the trigger to keep them revved up just completely flies in the face of HAWKENs usually extremely well imagined technology that seems plausible, because seriously nobody would ever design a gun that is only combat ready if you constantly attend to it outside of the fight. Game balance isn't really a good argument here, because quite frankly, the Incinerator isn't balanced, but we're getting to that.


The secondary:

SAARE - Terrible synergy, lame alternate fire mode, and a liability to boot. Basically this weapon is the biggest culprit in making this mech incapable of dealing with decent players. For one, given that you basically HAVE to fire both guns at the same time in the Incinerator, because you neither want your mech to overheat nor your chaingun to wind down, this weapon in absolutely no way synergizes with the chaingun. It fires extremely slow projectiles that arc while your chaingun fires much faster projectiles. Even the M4MA which does have a bit of an arc fires bullets that are significantly faster than what the SAARE shoots, so there is simply no way you can aim both guns at a moving target at the same time, certainly not one that's dodging and weaving.

The fireballs are also exceptionally difficult to hit flying targets with, and in a game where every single enemy is capable of flight that's kind of an insanely crippling weakness for a weapon.
The alternate fire mode on this weapon also just sucks. You get to choose between grenades and... slightly different grenades_ Wow, what a treat! That's like two slightly different things for the price of one useful secondary fire mode.

Another big problem is that this weapon is a massive liability for you, because in order to keep your chaingun going you HAVE to fire this thing off, whether you want to or not. Not only are you constantly giving your position away with this thing, you are also creating a hazard for yourself, because it does fire explosive projectiles, and that means if a friendly jumps in front of you while you're dumping heat with it, or you're dodging behind a wall you will take damage. Of course you'll try to avoid that, but trust me, never ever looking directly at a wall is a lot harder than it seems.

This weapon basically turns this entire mech into a noobstomper. If you're dealing with bots or really inexperienced players who stay on the ground and can't move much while keeping their aim you will annihilate them. If the target doesn't move much you can get both guns on it, keep both guns cranking, output insane damage and just annihilate any mech in seconds. If the target starts flying around, dodging or otherwise effectively making itself a hard target though you cannot get both weapons on it, you cannot effectively land your secondary at all anymore, and your primary is a massive liability that isn't even significantly more powerful than any regular old primary gun that doesn't need to be babied around the clock.

It feels like the contest between hitting and dodging with this gun has a disproportionately high skill ceiling for the defender, while the attacker really can't do much. Trying to hit a mech that's flying around with a slow arcing projectile is difficult, but it can be done. In bot matches it's decently easy to nail the flying drones with the fireballs from across the map - but that's because the drones move predictably. For a player it's possible to still dodge the fireball, even if it was shot to perfectly intercept their flight path at the time of it leaving the barrel. That means the shooter is not the final authority on whether or not the shot hits, and that means your skill at firing the weapon doesn't effectively scale along other peoples skill to evade it.


The special ability:

Terrible. Easily one of the worst special abilities in the game. Now don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a heavy mech that doesn't lug around a bunker, but a big weapon instead. Unfortunately this weapon is absolute garbage.

Basically what it does is create a shockwave around your mech that sets your heat to zero and deals damage according to how much heat you just dumped. That sounds insanely awesome right_ Anyone would kill for that kind of ability...   Well, anyone EXCEPT for the Incinerator.

The problem is this: Your heat is your ammo for your secondary weapon, you need that heat to shoot fireballs. So the second you hit that special your secondary weapon cannot fire until you've warmed it up by firing your primary weapon. Your primary weapon needs to spin up, and depending on the gun this takes several seconds. Using the ability will stop your chaingun and it has to rev up from a standstill before it can shoot again. So basically if you use your special ability you are completely unarmed for several seconds afterward. If your target doesn't die from you using this ability it will kill you. If your opponent has 1 HP left after getting hit with this thing he will kill you and walk away victorious.

Now you'd think that just means you use the shockwave when the enemy is already low as a finishing move, but that doesn't really work either, because in order for the shockwave to deal good damage you need to have high heat. So this means you're in a fight with an opponent, he's getting low on HP, but you can't shockwave and kill him then, because you had to use fireballs to get him low, which means you have to wait a second or two to build heat whithout shooting your secondary to get the heat you need to use your ability which then may or may not kill your opponent.

Basically using this ability is a huge gamble and rarely pays off. You have to gamble that the target doesn't kill you or leave in the time you take to build up heat to use this instead of the SAARE. You have to gamble that you won't accidentally overheat your mech and die on the spot trying to nudge the heat bar as closed to the top as you can get it. You have to gamble that you will actually hit the target, since you're not exactly so fast that you can easily force an enemy into shockwave range. You have to gamble that the target is actually dead after the shockwave, because if it isn't you will die. You have to gamble that nobody sees you use the shockwave, because that renders you stationary for about a second, and there are a lot of things in Hawken that severely punish you for not moving for a second.

It's a really cool concept executed in a terrible way.

The other special thing this mech does is take some of the heat from nearby allies onto itself, which is pretty cool in theory, but in practice kind of fizzles out. Pretty much all of the mechs in the game have adequate heat management as it is, and most pilots instinctually know how much they can fire before overheating, so changing the heat profile of their mech is only really useful if you're in a really protracted battle where you just have guns blazing nonstop for a substantial amount of time. (Like in a bot match)
The reason why this is less than amazing is because it creates an unpredictable element in a mech that has weapons which largely rely on you managing their heat carefully. The PPA for example is a decent enough weapon as long as you manage it very carefully, but if an ally walks past and fires a high heat weapon it can easily upset your rythm and overheat you, or force you to shoot an extra fireball, meaning the gun will slow down.
Also there seems to be no score awarded for absorbing heat at all, which means it's kind of unrewarding to try to stick close to people and help their heat generation.


The role:

I realize that this is a support/suppression mech, and it actually performs very well in that role. Simply bombarding a group of enemies with fireballs does make them duck for cover, and you can use it to simply fire into a hallway and enemies will think twice about actually moving through there. The problem is that the game does nothing to recognize suppression in the scoring. I can see on my radar that enemies are coming up to the bottleneck I'm fire-bombing, then turn around and look for another path, and that is somewhat satisfying, but at the end of the day, you're still just standing there shooting at the ground while everyone else is racking up kills.


So to sum it up:

The Incinerator is amazingly good at killing bots and noobs. Any combination of its weapons and abilities absolutely demolish targets that move relatively predictably and stay on the ground. If you like Co-op, this mech is fantastic at it. Especially the fact that you never have to upgrade its heat management makes it a huge boomer late in the game.

Unfortunately the Incinerator is terrible at killing good players. The fireballs are incredibly easy to avoid, and the chainguns are all demanding on your attention while not being anywhere near powerful enough to win a fight without the fireballs landing, which you need to fire just so you can keep the chaingun going. The special ability is way too risky to use in a real fight, by the time you're sure you can safely use it you could just as well kill that enemy without it.

It actually works very well in its intended role, it can fire indefinitely and fill an area with dangerous amounts of damage, but that role is not rewarding either from a player perspective, nor from a score perspective.




Rant over.

Edited by Aetrion, March 09 2014 - 11:46 PM.


#2 LoC_TR

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Posted March 09 2014 - 11:43 PM

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Incinerator is good, you're doing it wrong. We use it in scrims as a supression/support mech. You're insane to write this much on a mech that is actually good. Xacius has some vids on his twitch A vs B scrims i think.. Used papa too, which i find to be incredibly annoying weapon to play with. I get that he's the best player and thats not necessarily a good example. There is a pattern to how you play with those weapons, yes even the papa. Most if not all the scrims i've played in the past couple weeks have featured a INC on one or both teams. Terribly awesome power of suppression that you're undervaluing. See if you can track down those vids, watch and learn.

tldr you're doing it wrong

Edited by LoC_TR, March 09 2014 - 11:53 PM.

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#3 nokari

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Posted March 09 2014 - 11:45 PM

^ /opinion


Cue the lovers and the haters

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#4 LoC_TR

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Posted March 10 2014 - 12:34 AM

View Postnokari, on March 09 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

^ /opinion


Cue the lovers and the haters

What else would it be_ You should edit and actually write something useful here.

Spoiler

Edited by LoC_TR, March 10 2014 - 12:38 AM.

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#5 EliteShooter

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Posted March 10 2014 - 03:41 AM

it's powerful IMO , special and very funny to play ! no need to fuzzy bunny it up !

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#6 hendman

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Posted March 10 2014 - 03:54 AM

If anything I find the incinerator totally annoying to deal with. The consistent spam of fireballs makes it very hard to dodge out of the way, and quite frankly I don't see why this mech should have a secondary that doesn't have a cooldown.

Defending or attacking the AA in siege while there is one incinerator spamming fireballs is annoying, put another incinerator and tech on the AA and it gets a deathtrap.

#7 Battlesbreak

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Posted March 10 2014 - 04:52 AM

View Posthendman, on March 10 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

If anything I find the incinerator totally annoying to deal with. The consistent spam of fireballs makes it very hard to dodge out of the way, and quite frankly.

You see me dancing around that fire ball... Called incinerator. Nah Incinerator is okay those projectiles are easy to dodge and pretty much like undetonate able grenades to me. Just keep moving as you dash dodge to sides this will keep the player guessing where you would move. To me as infiltrator it is easy to surprise Incinerator but the amount of health it has is somewhat irritating and teadious to deal with but I still stomp the Incinerator if the player of mech is not being wise and stay with team.

#8 mrvile

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Posted March 10 2014 - 05:57 AM

View Posthendman, on March 10 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

If anything I find the incinerator totally annoying to deal with. The consistent spam of fireballs makes it very hard to dodge out of the way, and quite frankly I don't see why this mech should have a secondary that doesn't have a cooldown.

Defending or attacking the AA in siege while there is one incinerator spamming fireballs is annoying, put another incinerator and tech on the AA and it gets a deathtrap.

The fireballs can be hard to use though, they don't have airburst. Flying Berserkers are hard to deal with in an Incinerator, I find that I can usually only get the kill once they've run out of fuel and land. The fireballs are slow so you have to lead your target for a direct hit, and every time you have to take your crosshairs off the enemy you've got no machinegun DPS. But as a ground suppression weapon, the SAARE is crazy effective. I'm getting more assists than I ever have with this thing because I'm just spamming firepower in every direction, continuously, and the Incinerator can benefit the team a lot if the team can stick together and roll with momentum.

#9 nokari

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Posted March 10 2014 - 06:56 AM

View PostLoC_TR, on March 10 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

View Postnokari, on March 09 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

^ /opinion


Cue the lovers and the haters

What else would it be_ You should edit and actually write something useful here.

Spoiler

I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the OP and you just happened to ninja me.

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#10 Silk_Sk

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Posted March 10 2014 - 07:41 AM

I use the P4PA as well, and I have do have to say, the combination of P4PA and Saare2 is far too strong once you get good at heat management. Combined, they do about 210 dps which is the highest in the game. Yeah, you should avoid direct engagement with skilled players but that goes for any mech really.
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#11 Aetrion

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Posted March 10 2014 - 09:10 AM

I just love how in video game forums you can act as though you refuted 20 different points someone made without addressing any of them by simply saying they are doing it wrong.

It's not that I'm not open to suggestions, but they need to be specific to the problems I'm describing to be in any way valuable.

#12 Silk_Sk

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Posted March 10 2014 - 09:30 AM

View PostAetrion, on March 10 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I just love how in video game forums you can act as though you refuted 20 different points someone made without addressing any of them by simply saying they are doing it wrong.

It's not that I'm not open to suggestions, but they need to be specific to the problems I'm describing to be in any way valuable.

Alright. While I agree your assessment of the B4BY and M4MA, the P4PA should be the weapon you use all the time. Yes, it is an incredibly difficult weapon to manage. Yes, it overheats more or less instantly. Yes, the wind-up time is excessive. But when you are able to juggle all these factors and keep shooting_ Holy fuzzy bunny is it effective. It's the definition of high-risk high-payoff.

The P4PA at full spin actually has almost the same DPS as the Saare2. So, if an enemy is hovering don't try and hit them with the Saare. Keep shooting it, sure, but aim with your primary. Also, while the Saare2 only has 20 more damage than Saare1, the blast radius is excellent. This makes hovering a very good tactic. Equip an air compressor as well and lay waste to the area beneath you.

As for the ability, I agree it could use a buff. But if you're using the P4PA it's no trouble at all to build up the heat you need for a finishing blow. It helps to have them up against a wall as well so they can't back away.

But you can't be stealthy right_ this is definitely not the case. Build up a bunch of heat away from the enemy, then unload on them with the Saare2 after you approach for some decent burst. By the time you've exhausted your heat, the P4PA will begin to fire and you'll have all the heat you want.

Again, yeah it's not as effective against good players but what mech is_

Edited by Silk_Sk, March 10 2014 - 09:31 AM.

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#13 LoC_TR

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Posted March 10 2014 - 12:23 PM

View PostAetrion, on March 10 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I just love how in video game forums you can act as though you refuted 20 different points someone made without addressing any of them by simply saying they are doing it wrong.

It's not that I'm not open to suggestions, but they need to be specific to the problems I'm describing to be in any way valuable.
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Lol dude if you wanted tips on how to play it look here. You ranted all about how this mech sucks, and it doesn't. I just doesn't. Maybe your teammates aren't using you right___ Maybe you're trying to use it to actually kill something, when you're a support/assist mech. Though if you have a tech on you, you can pretty much roll up on anyone without any problems. The PPA and MMA both have spash damage, mixed with the SAARE you don't actually have to hit your target.. hit everything around them and where they want to go.

Dealing with good players.. ermagerd... this will never be easy. That's why they're good players.

Edited by LoC_TR, March 10 2014 - 12:30 PM.

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#14 Aetrion

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Posted March 10 2014 - 02:55 PM

How well your mech does against good players still heavily depends on how easy it is to counter your abilities, and the Incinerator is incredibly easy to counter. You can't airburst your explosives, and firing projectiles that have different speeds means your opponent will always dodge at least one of your weapons.

It does make a huge difference if your weapons can be countered completely or not. An Incinerator is practically guaranteed to take top kills in a Co-Op match, purely because those targets don't just get out of the way.

#15 Silk_Sk

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Posted March 10 2014 - 04:38 PM

View PostAetrion, on March 10 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

How well your mech does against good players still heavily depends on how easy it is to counter your abilities, and the Incinerator is incredibly easy to counter. You can't airburst your explosives, and firing projectiles that have different speeds means your opponent will always dodge at least one of your weapons.

I repeat, get good with the P4PA and shoot them out of the sky with it. It has almost the same DPS as the charged Saare. And heck, just get good at hitting people in the air with both weapons. Sure, it's not easy but that's what makes it worth it.
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#16 LoC_TR

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Posted March 10 2014 - 09:19 PM

Play a raider against good players.

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#17 mrvile

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Posted March 11 2014 - 04:14 AM

View PostAetrion, on March 10 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

How well your mech does against good players still heavily depends on how easy it is to counter your abilities, and the Incinerator is incredibly easy to counter. You can't airburst your explosives, and firing projectiles that have different speeds means your opponent will always dodge at least one of your weapons.

It does make a huge difference if your weapons can be countered completely or not. An Incinerator is practically guaranteed to take top kills in a Co-Op match, purely because those targets don't just get out of the way.

Hawken isn't a 1v1 fighting game, the mechs aren't designed to be balanced in 1v1 settings. Hawken is a 6v6 team-based game, you should be learning to play with your team and prioritizing your mech's role. The Incinerator is an incredible asset to any decent team by providing massive suppressive fire, holding points, denying kills, and keeping momentum rolling.

Edited by mrvile, March 11 2014 - 04:14 AM.


#18 Daronicus

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Posted March 11 2014 - 04:30 AM

I realize this might be an unpopular opinion, but I actually think PPA Incinerator needs a nerf. Its DPS is way too high considering how much it can put out without ever overheating. Add in the fact that half of that damage is splash, the surprisingly small spread on the gun, and the ~200(!) damage you're risking by getting close. It's a scary mech with just that. When you then factor in a Tech that also never overheats (or at least close enough to never), you've got a hardcore train going that's extremely difficult to stop.

It's fast, too, so you can't outrun it like you can the Brawler.

Part of my opinion is saltiness from being on the receiving end of Xacius's Incinerator. But with that comes a certain appreciation for just how much that mech can accomplish.

There's also the problem (imo) that it basically outclasses the Gren on every map but uptown.

#19 Silk_Sk

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Posted March 11 2014 - 06:11 AM

View PostDaronicus, on March 11 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I realize this might be an unpopular opinion, but I actually think PPA Incinerator needs a nerf. Its DPS is way too high considering how much it can put out without ever overheating. Add in the fact that half of that damage is splash, the surprisingly small spread on the gun, and the ~200(!) damage you're risking by getting close. It's a scary mech with just that. When you then factor in a Tech that also never overheats (or at least close enough to never), you've got a hardcore train going that's extremely difficult to stop.

Agreed. 211 DPS is way too high no matter how hard it is to maintain. I would say that M4MA and B4BY should be buffed, P4PA nerfed slightly and the heat buildup reduced. Charged Saare should keep the good splash but have the same damage as uncharged.
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#20 Farlanghn

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Posted March 11 2014 - 07:53 AM

View PostAetrion, on March 10 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I just love how in video game forums you can act as though you refuted 20 different points someone made without addressing any of them by simply saying they are doing it wrong.

It's not that I'm not open to suggestions, but they need to be specific to the problems I'm describing to be in any way valuable.

I would point out things but I lost interest after the 13th paragraph you wrote. 20hrs is enough time to get the mech down. I also have an elite incin but I have read up on the other weapons and I feel they would be a waste of HC.

As I think in your 7th paragraph you mention suppression/support. Just like the predator is suppression/defense. You aren't going to take that mech in DM. If you aren't using it for this then yes, "you are playing it wrong". It's used to help your team out. To push past enemy defenses. If you are running out there by yourself then yes you are going to get taken out. Now I know the next thing you are going to say is I know. But if you did you wouldn't be making this post.

Yes a skilled pilot can be hard to hard. But you can also say that same thing for a tow rocket. Now this is also something I struggle with to but wait until they finish their dodge. Then fire. You have to shoot where they are going to be. Not where they are. Getting good at that, the chain gun is basically there just to tap the mech.

You also had a problem with the ability. This again is used for a very specific way. LAST CHANCE SURVIVAL. You aren't going to run out into the open and try to kill someone. It leaves you wide open. You do it in those 1v1 fights where you can't get that last shot on a guy but he is almost dead. About to overheat_ Run towards him and let ripe. I can't tell you how many times I have died trying using that move. But that's okay. Because when I do get it off it is amazing. It is more of a slam in the face than anything. I mean you basically just buttslammed the guy.

Just keep in mind this isn't a Rambo mech.




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