45 replies to this topic

[Kai_Kitamura]

Please don't turn these forums into MWO forums.

[Robsbot]

Beemann, on October 26 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Wait... did you just call people entitled for complaining about balance in Beta and then complain about MWO's balance_

Absolutely, mainly because the mechanics don't work from a fundamental level as well as I feel the Devs aren't listening to the player base about balance, but that's a discussion for another time.

[TerranCmdr]

Nice post Robsbot, couldn't agree with you more.  So sick of seeing complaining, unhelpful posts from people who got a free beta key and expected a polished, ready-to-play game.  I'm sure the devs are more than willing to take well thought out, cohesive comments and criticisms into consideration. (Wow, check out that alliteration! lol)

I just wish people would be a little more patient dammit!

Edited by TerranCmdr, October 26 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Robsbot]

TerranCmdr, on October 26 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'm sure the devs are more than willing to take well thought out, cohesive comments and criticisms into consideration. (Wow, check out that alliteration! lol)

Please tell me that was accidental, and if it was, I love you.

Xionel, on October 26 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

The best way to handle this situation is to not care.  You're not here to give therapy sessions to internet people, you're here to play a video game and that's all that matters.  If internet attitude is a problem for you then you're not here for the intended purpose.

I'm actually here to play a video game and have fun. In a multiplayer game my enjoyment is heavily reliant on the community due to the nature of it being... you know... multiplayer. Helping to foster a good community helps me enjoy the game. Therefore it is in my best interests to help grow the community in a positive way.

Edited by Robsbot, October 26 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[gr8stalin]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Entitlement

Absolutely incredible.

We've reached The Old Republic Forums level.

[Robsbot]

gr8stalin, on October 26 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Entitlement

Absolutely incredible.

We've reached The Old Republic Forums level.

Thank you for positive input.

[TerranCmdr]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

TerranCmdr, on October 26 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'm sure the devs are more than willing to take well thought out, cohesive comments and criticisms into consideration. (Wow, check out that alliteration! lol)

Please tell me that was accidental, and if it was, I love you.

Haha, total accident, I swear.

Edited by TerranCmdr, October 26 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Beemann]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Absolutely, mainly because the mechanics don't work from a fundamental level as well as I feel the Devs aren't listening to the player base about balance, but that's a discussion for another time.

So for personal reasons, you feel that your complaining is okay, but the complaining of others isn't_
Also, "listening to the playerbase" is a loaded term. The community is not a cohesive mass in any game. They do not all agree on all subjects, or even some subjects. There's always a large group that disagrees on any truly relevant issue. Ultimately you're complaining about the developers not listening to YOUR side, which I find is valid, but your initial post suggests otherwise

I'm totally cool with people coming onto the forums and tearing apart bits of the game they don't like or feel are broken and need improvement
When I disagree, I'll let them know and I'll list the reasons why
That's how this whole process works

I doubt Adhesive would be inviting people into beta tests without understanding that they're going to take a lot of flak for various features and server instability
I kinda like to think that the whole POINT is to get that. Lots of loud voices cry out for X to get nerfed or Y to get fixed and the Devs take that feedback into account. Not all of it is well written and articulate... and some of it is rather knee-jerk, but it's important to have it anyway

I don't see a lot of frothing-at-the-mouth rage on the forums. I primarily see people getting upset and trying to articulate why. Occasionally there will be a post that boils down to "nuh uh" or something equivalent, but it's pretty easy to disregard those.

[gr8stalin]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

gr8stalin, on October 26 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Entitlement

Absolutely incredible.

We've reached The Old Republic Forums level.

Thank you for positive input.

This entire thread is completely negative. The Hawken servers are a mess and they're working hard to make this game work, meanwhile the shill of perfection is here telling us we're entitled because there are posters expressing their frustration.

[Xionel]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

I'm actually here to play a video game and have fun. In a multiplayer game my enjoyment is heavily reliant on the community due to the nature of it being... you know... multiplayer. Helping to foster a good community helps me enjoy the game. Therefore it is in my best interests to help grow the community in a positive way.

Well you certainly aren't positive yourself, you're pretty much complaining about people complaining.  And yes this is a multiplayer game, but once you're in the game the community here on the forum is entirely different from the community inside the game.  Why_  Because they have better things to do than complaining.

[Raqn]

Please stop with this 'Entitlement' bullshit. I can think of very few industries in the world that could complain about their customers being entitled and have it not only taken well but have the customers themselves jump on the other customers because of it. I can honestly say I thought the 'sucking up to the corporate overlords' was only something spread by edgy teenagers until I saw the fuzzy bunny state of the gaming industry.

I'd also argue that you've completely fuzzy bunny missed the mark in regards to what a beta is as well and what the developers are looking for. I can tell you right now that gamers have no fuzzy bunny clue on how to balance games properly and the only true way to gauge if something is imbalanced is basically by looking through the fuzzy bunny posted and see if there is a rough majority opinion. The best way to do this is sometimes having a lot of bad posters whine on the forums, thats unfortunately just the way it is (although I agree that the dumbfucks complaning about server stablilty need to reevaluate their posting)

Second, the company made this for money. That's it. They didn't make it so you could have a magical gaming experience. If they thought they could get more money by compromising the quality of the game they would have done it. Maybe it will be really benifical to the gaming industry but honestly, thats just a positive side effect. Seriously, don't fool yourself into thinking that the developers are really looking for anything else apart from making money, because they're not.

[Robsbot]

Beemann, on October 26 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

edited for length

edited for length

Complaining
1. To express feelings of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment

Aside from possibly my rant at the end and my first sentence, my post contained no complaining. It was factual data on what beta testers should be doing or information on gave development. In my initial posts I also did state that it was my opinion of MWO. I'd be more than happy to express my balance opinions and experiences of MWO in PM's after NDA's are lifted, but as of now I can't.

I absolutely agree to your point about cohesive debates. However, I've seen several posts that the general tone of "This sucks are you guys dumb_" Listing things you find satisfactory or unsatisfactory, as well as listing balance issues with coherent points is absolutely crucial though, and debate about the issue is absolutely healthy and should be encouraged.

Beta tests certainly have a "try these features and give us feedback" feel but the amount of vehemence devs seem to receive is appalling. Give coherent, intelligent feedback and treat the devs like humans is pretty much all I'm trying to get at.

Edited by Robsbot, October 26 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Patrick Bateman]

dont like nonsensical changes_

SO ENTITLED its just a BETA theyll PATCH it

youre not paying money for it so you have no right to complain

its called creative liberties

no its not catering to the lowest common denominator

Edited by Patrick Bateman, October 26 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Raqn]

gr8stalin, on October 26 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

We've reached The Old Republic Forums level.

You summed this topic up better than me in a single sentence.

[Robsbot]

Raqn, on October 26 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Please stop with this 'Entitlement' bullshit. I can think of very few industries in the world that could complain about their customers being entitled and have it not only taken well but have the customers themselves jump on the other customers because of it. I can honestly say I thought the 'sucking up to the corporate overlords' was only something spread by edgy teenagers until I saw the fuzzy bunny state of the gaming industry.

Second, the company made this for money. That's it. They didn't make it so you could have a magical gaming experience. If they thought they could get more money by compromising the quality of the game they would have done it. Maybe it will be really benifical to the gaming industry but honestly, thats just a positive side effect. Seriously, don't fool yourself into thinking that the developers are really looking for anything else apart from making money, because they're not.

The PUBLISHER is only looking at the bottom line. The DEVELOPER is most likely a gamer who had an idea of a game they thought they would enjoy and are interested in producing it for others to enjoy. I know several developers on a personal level and I can damn well assure you they aren't businessmen at all. They are gamers trying to produce something people would enjoy. Go watch indie game the movie. See the reaction of the developers of Super Meat Boy to their sales figures. They weren't that interested. The thing they enjoyed the most was youtube videos of people enjoying their game. That's the difference between a developer and a publisher.

In any other format I would understand. If this was a release, you paid 60$ for your game and this is what you got, you have every right to be mad. This is a beta. Sure they are still looking to make money and you should get what you pay for but you don't get to have that attitude until you pay something for your gaming experience. You wouldn't see me post this post release. That's why it's in the beta forums.

[CharlieCroker]

fuzzy bunny I would do a long rambling argument but that would make me sound like an asshat, like you in fact. Many of the beta testers understand that the game is in beta, so we word a few of our complaints constructively, but the thing is it isn't a safety test for the game engine with play testers, it's a road test with real people. No game given to the public in any form be it the general public or a select unemployed few should be immune from scrutiny at any level. Stop this fuzzy bunny about entitlement and deal with people not liking things and being vocal about it, I should hope this forum and community is here to test and give feedback on the game with improvement in mind.

[Beemann]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Complaining
1. To express feelings of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment

Aside from possibly my rant at the end and my first sentence, my post contained no complaining. It was factual data on what beta testers should be doing or information on gave development. In my initial posts I also did state that it was my opinion of MWO. I'd be more than happy to express my balance opinions and experiences of MWO in PM's after NDA's are lifted, but as of now I can't.

I absolutely agree to your point about cohesive debates. However, I've seen several posts that the general tone of "This sucks are you guys dumb_" Listing things you find satisfactory or unsatisfactory, as well as listing balance issues with coherent points is absolutely crucial though, and debate about the issue is absolutely healthy and should be encouraged.

Beta tests certainly have a "try these features and give us feedback" feel but the amount of vehemence devs seem to receive is appalling. Give coherent, intelligent feedback and treat the devs like humans is pretty much all I'm trying to get at.

The majority of the post was clarification as to your own ideas of what betas are about and why people should stop doing X Y and Z. It was simply explaining your complaint

You're always going to get non-constructive feedback, that happens everywhere... Heck I get non-constructive replies to my posts all the time (had a guy jump into a thread the other day just to try to trash talk me for giving his friend a verbal ass kicking when it came to discussing game balance)

You didn't just limit it to that though. You implied that balance suggestions shouldn't be made right now (because people haven't extensively tested it)
I don't think it always takes x number of hours to determine that a bad idea is bad, or that a mechanic is poorly implemented

I also feel that throwing out an overused and loaded term like "Entitled" is a bit of a fuzzy bunny move. This has nothing to do with people believing they are gaming dictators (though some of the threads I've seen... looking at you locked graphics options threads ) and everything to do with the fact that certain aspects of the game bother them. It's pretty clear that something has gone wrong on one end or the other when you've got a mob of people who take issue with a particular aspect of the game, even if they aren't particularly polite about it

[Sirbackup]

People are saying that its just beta, its just test but...  if its test, if its supposed to somehow simulate launch, shouldnt it also involve whining people_ isnt it part of the test that people act like its real thing, whining like its real thing, and thus... isnt it kinda pressure test for devs or something_ I dunno...

anyways, I dont care, its whole weekend and im sure I´ll get to play this beta sooner or later after opening rush.

[MajorAjer]

Robsbot, on October 26 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Raqn, on October 26 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Please stop with this 'Entitlement' bullshit. I can think of very few industries in the world that could complain about their customers being entitled and have it not only taken well but have the customers themselves jump on the other customers because of it. I can honestly say I thought the 'sucking up to the corporate overlords' was only something spread by edgy teenagers until I saw the fuzzy bunny state of the gaming industry.

Second, the company made this for money. That's it. They didn't make it so you could have a magical gaming experience. If they thought they could get more money by compromising the quality of the game they would have done it. Maybe it will be really benifical to the gaming industry but honestly, thats just a positive side effect. Seriously, don't fool yourself into thinking that the developers are really looking for anything else apart from making money, because they're not.

The PUBLISHER is only looking at the bottom line. The DEVELOPER is most likely a gamer who had an idea of a game they thought they would enjoy and are interested in producing it for others to enjoy. I know several developers on a personal level and I can damn well assure you they aren't businessmen at all. They are gamers trying to produce something people would enjoy. Go watch indie game the movie. See the reaction of the developers of Super Meat Boy to their sales figures. They weren't that interested. The thing they enjoyed the most was youtube videos of people enjoying their game. That's the difference between a developer and a publisher.

In any other format I would understand. If this was a release, you paid 60$ for your game and this is what you got, you have every right to be mad. This is a beta. Sure they are still looking to make money and you should get what you pay for but you don't get to have that attitude until you pay something for your gaming experience. You wouldn't see me post this post release. That's why it's in the beta forums.

GOOD THING ADHESIVE IS PUBLISHER AND DEVELOPER. The only real thread recently that could me misconstrude as negative, is this one and the one about ugly mechs. The alpha 2 mechs were absolutely beautiful and these ones are drastically different. The latter thread was about 90% sarcastic so if you are reading it as negative you have missed the mark.

EDIT: lol sweet im wrong or am i_

Edited by MajorAjer, October 26 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[TerranCmdr]

CharlieCroker, on October 26 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

fuzzy bunny I would do a long rambling argument but that would make me sound like an asshat, like you in fact. Many of the beta testers understand that the game is in beta, so we word a few of our complaints constructively, but the thing is it isn't a safety test for the game engine with play testers, it's a road test with real people. No game given to the public in any form be it the general public or a select unemployed few should be immune from scrutiny at any level. Stop this fuzzy bunny about entitlement and deal with people not liking things and being vocal about it, I should hope this forum and community is here to test and give feedback on the game with improvement in mind.

I don't mind people being vocal about suggestions, but FFS show a little respect to the devs who have worked so hard.  And I really do feel people have a false sense of entitlement.  Not many game developers let you play Alpha and Beta builds, and we should be grateful to play Hawken early, and patient while things are being fine tuned.