54 replies to this topic

[M4st0d0n]

It's a bit more complex than king of the hill but we'll never know. A whole meta and strategies could have emerged if this gamemode was played competitively and wasn't crippled with induced bad habbits. Nobody likes campers when the only way to win is AA control. Devs choosed to reward people with a blinking "+14 XP, good job fragging that turret" on the screen. Same thing for chasing kills three level below instead of securing AA or cluelessly transfering EU and launching. Good job MVP kill leader/Most EU, guess what, you still suck. Obviously turrets on the ship are meant to be shot to mitigate damage to base. That's the main reason you should want to shoot at it, to give some time to control the AA. The fact is, AA control is risky. It's a messy clusterfuck (or a LP siting duck on Last Echo). People then tend to be more comfortable at farming kills for KDR and XP for credits. It's natural. The game reinforced the comportment. Sad thing is, in most F2P games with vertical progression or ingame currency this type of farming is induced as well. It seems almost normal now. And this fuzzy bunny Daily Win syndrome. It could be good if siege servers wheren't reduced to a mechwarrior chat roulette. You join, you quit, it's lobsided, it's 1 vs 6, oh no now its 6 vs 6 but bases are 100/3000. it's fuzzy bunny pointless.

[shosca]

I have a very simple fix. EU trees should continue to give out eu when there's a ship in the air. Now discuss..

[StubbornPuppet]

 shosca, on October 17 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

I have a very simple fix. EU trees should continue to give out eu when there's a ship in the air. Now discuss..

Nice.  That would make it worse.  The same chicken-noobies who are afraid of dying and already would rather hide and take pot-shots and farm EU will have even more incentive to do more of the same.  If the objective is to be IN THE AA, give more visible points for the time a player spends standing in the AA boundry.

As for Alpha78's furthering of the "balancing in Siege is too fragile" point - stating that if 1 or 2 players "stand out and don't do anything"... well, I'd argue, politely, "that is the case with any good objective mode."  Even in TDM, if you try to go out with 4 players against 6 players of equal skill, you will be outgunned and eventually lose.  I'm not saying that 1 or 2 really epic players can't actually beat those odds - I'm just speaking generally.  I would go so far as to argue that, "If an objective based mode can be, in general, won by a team who has a few players not contributing... it's not designed properly."

I think most of us want (or at least say we want) games that require teamwork to win.  Just like sports, sometimes your team is "ON" and sometimes your team is "OFF".  Sometimes you just get beat.  Sometimes you just can't help but give the beating.

I've sure seen a good amount of matches where both teams were really well balanced and fought very, very hard... but the match still ends with a huge score disparity.  And I've seen just as many matches where a team that is destined to lose suddenly gets their fuzzy bunny (ha, the filter edited p00p) together and pulls out an epic comeback.  What's surprising to me is how much of all of these dynamic scenarios I've seen recently as the MMR spread (aka SRD) of matches increases with the smaller player base.  Pretty much every match I've played (and I generally only play Siege and MA) over the last 3 days has had an SRD of 1400 - 2400... and they've been great.  It's also been nice to see my position on the carousel be all over the place in those matches - sometimes I'm at the bottom, sometimes the middle, sometimes at the top.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, October 17 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Shosca it has all been discussed long enough before and you know that. We'll see how they'll fix Siege in the 2.0 version in the next patch with clan system. Mwahaha.

Part of this nonsense about shooting the ship when it's hopeless came back from a post about the old clan Stealkillers. They published a video about how they were able to shoot the ship without effort, gather the EU remains, making Siege a stalemate if people were willing it to last long. Guess what... People were not giving a fuzzy bunny about the beta state of betaness and how to fix the game and if feedback to the devs was usable about Siege balance. They just exploited the fuzzy bunny out of it to make credits by making Siege last one hour long. One fekin hour long. Because XPs were allowed for time spent. Lucky me, I love my wife. She likes things short and intense, planned with finesse but filled with action. I wish Siege was like her.

Because I'm so intense.

Edited by M4st0d0n, October 17 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Erratum to the last post. I cant call what's badly designed an exploit. Some people are unwillingly conditioned to make it tedious as well. If a one hour Siege is fun for some people I can understand why. But most of the times if it's overextended it's because monkeys in the team have not been trained properly to play it as it was intended to.

The problem is not even what people feel about Siege balance. This game wont reach balance because feedback was always ignored in the past, be it with the HAB or whatever input on this forum. It's worst than that. You've got an entire population of vets smurfing on half emptied servers making MMR indicator useless. What kind of significant gamedata statistics will you collect out of this mess to balance the game_

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 SS396, on October 16 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 16 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

What if you learned when not to go collect a ton of EU you'll only have to take with you to the AA_  What if you kept your EU to the minimum you might need and can dump at the base before needing to run to the AA_

What if you... wait for it... planned_

What if, what if, we can sit here all night and what if.  I guess if you actually knew how I played or asked me, then I could understand you making assumptions but when you just infer something from one post, well, thats just silly.

SS, I've played you for years now, you just don't know under which accounts.  I think I know you.

Quote

Even you contradict his post with your statement of "What if you kept your EU to the minimum you might need and can dump at the base before needing to run to the AA_"  His statement is that everyone that drops any EU at the base once he says go to AA, is greedy.  I simply stated that isn't the case and gave him a valid reason why.

Not here to contradict his post.  Here to suggest that people play with a little predictive element and plan better - while in this version of Siege you do need to collect/dump EU to score, you don't need to do the maximum collection possible (and then lose EU you're not scoring with to the other team, adding potential for losing the game to the lost scoring).

[M4st0d0n]

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

SS, I've played you for years now, you just don't know under which accounts.  I think I know you.

What was I saying earlier about vets smurfing and gamedata. Nevermind. Now write a guide about how devs should deduce the balance of this game from stats when their testers dont even want to have a stable ID.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 M4st0d0n, on October 17 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

SS, I've played you for years now, you just don't know under which accounts.  I think I know you.

What was I saying earlier about vets smurfing and gamedata. Nevermind. Now write a guide about how devs should deduce the balance of this game from stats when their testers dont even want to have a stable ID.

Kiss my grits.  My main has 360 hours, my alts have 200+ each.

Further, I play at 2100+.  When I see SS, he's usually playing over his current level.  Not stomping newbs.

[M4st0d0n]

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

 M4st0d0n, on October 17 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

SS, I've played you for years now, you just don't know under which accounts.  I think I know you.

What was I saying earlier about vets smurfing and gamedata. Nevermind. Now write a guide about how devs should deduce the balance of this game from stats when their testers dont even want to have a stable ID.

Kiss my grits.  My main has 360 hours, my alts have 200+ each.

Oh god I'm so impressed, you're my hero.

The most funny thing about it is, lots of online community will despise smurfers because of the way they mess with matchmaking. And I mean real online out of beta games. Here vets beta testers brags about it...

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 M4st0d0n, on October 17 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

 M4st0d0n, on October 17 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

SS, I've played you for years now, you just don't know under which accounts.  I think I know you.

What was I saying earlier about vets smurfing and gamedata. Nevermind. Now write a guide about how devs should deduce the balance of this game from stats when their testers dont even want to have a stable ID.

Kiss my grits.  My main has 360 hours, my alts have 200+ each.

Oh god I'm so impressed, you're my hero.

The most funny thing about it is, lots of online community will despise smurfers because of the way they mess with matchmaking. And I mean real online out of beta games. Here vets beta testers brags about it...

I guess you must be tired of losing to better players, huh_  I answered your (implied) question, not trying to impress you or anyone.

[SS396]

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

SS, I've played you for years now, you just don't know under which accounts.  I think I know you.

Well thats a bunch of fuzzy bunny.  You hide behind unknown usernames and then proceed to tell me that we play with and against each other all the time and you know me.  No, you don't know me, the people that can hear my voice and recognize who it is, know me.

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Not here to contradict his post.  Here to suggest that people play with a little predictive element and plan better - while in this version of Siege you do need to collect/dump EU to score, you don't need to do the maximum collection possible (and then lose EU you're not scoring with to the other team, adding potential for losing the game to the lost scoring).

I'm not saying its best to get the max load when its close to launch, please don't infer that I did say that or do that in game.  What I'm saying and have said is that if I have a max load and I'm near the base, its best to dump as much of it as possible in case I die at the AA.  It has nothing to do with being greedy for XP as the OP said.

Whoever controls the AA gathers up the EU left over from the carcasses, if its your team that can pick up your dropped EU and disperse it among themselves, then fine the team doesn't lose out, but when its the other team its just a waste and free EU for them.  Its as simple as that.

[M4st0d0n]

 Call_Me_Ishmael, on October 17 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

I guess you must be tired of losing to better players, huh_  I answered your (implied) question, not trying to impress you or anyone.

Guess what you want mate I'm more than happy with my stats and used no smurf.

My implied question is "how is it possible to gather reliable gamedata if the majority of players are smurfing_" What did you answer_ That you used #ChuckNorris on every name of your alts to avoid the low ranked servers and get to 2100+ MMR without farming noobs_ Get real. Go frag Suicax in a CRT on a low ranked server you'll get plenty of underdog bonus XP. XD

Dont take it personnaly I was talking about Siege balance and how it's screwed from the start with the amount of smurfing used here. You just happened to answer another post while saying you fragged SS with many other accounts. I cant help but find it silly.

[FlamingBeaker]

Sometimes the EU you carry is stolen EU from an opposing player. You don't want to give it back to them to use against you, so you run it to the base, then someone calls out "AA". I sure don't want to run a full tank back to the AA where they can kill me & take it back again. I've even resorted to killing myself at my base just to drop the EU where it's inaccessible. Lack of a 'Drop EU' button sucks.

Although I had the frustration once of killing myself, dropping the EU, then watching as a fellow teammate sucked the EU up, then ran toward the AA to 'help'...


edited for grammar

Edited by FlamingBeaker, October 18 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

Most time people dont realize they absolutely dont want to launch if they want to win. PRESSING E before the countdown reaches zero should be the most basic courtesy people show. The usual monkey will sit on the trone and drop a majestic green poo with horns and trumpets, then come back like a prince near AA. Fat chance your highness, the other team wants to control it as well. The only time you want to launch is as a sacrifice when enemy has a ship high and control AA but your team is willing to fight for it. I spare usually 30 secs to let time for people to gather up and go AA, and give time for me to go there as well while the ship autolaunch. Sometimes you want to left a bit more or a bit less depending on the enemy countdown. If another monkey from the team then launch, then try to teach lessons about how they got a big MMR epeen instead of a brain and how matchmaking made it team with noobs, then I get angry and spam the mute button while typing nasty words. Ah Siege. Tons of fun.

[M4st0d0n]

Oh nevermind with the snipers. I played five match tonight. Lexwing something on EU servers was just doing that. Reaper, shooting the enemy ship. One other guy ZX80 on the enemy team was writing in global chat when he launched. These guys are either stupid, or teaming to farm. GG trolls.

[Interrobang87]

 M4st0d0n, on October 18 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh nevermind with the snipers. I played five match tonight. Lexwing something on EU servers was just doing that. Reaper, shooting the enemy ship. One other guy ZX80 on the enemy team was writing in global chat when he launched. These guys are either stupid, or teaming to farm. GG trolls.

Call outs are bad M'kay.

I can't sleep so I'm gonna throw my 2 cent hat into the ring. One of the problems with siege is map design. Not counting last echo, all the maps have an eu tree waaay out on either side of the AA which promotes stagnant game play.

Generally speaking, you never see people actually fighting over the resources (unless there's a party) which is supposed to be one of the primary mechanics of the game mode!

[M4st0d0n]

 Interrobang87, on October 18 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

 M4st0d0n, on October 18 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh nevermind with the snipers. I played five match tonight. Lexwing something on EU servers was just doing that. Reaper, shooting the enemy ship. One other guy ZX80 on the enemy team was writing in global chat when he launched. These guys are either stupid, or teaming to farm. GG trolls.

Call outs are bad M'kay.

Listen I've played this game long enough. There's just a handful of guys to play with. Good folks. But there's the occasional A-hole ruining games. No moderators on the forum, report tickets are useless, there's no sanction, no ban. SO LET THE COMMUNITY REGULATE ITSELF. If I want to warn my fellow teammates who're still playing siege that I suspect coordinated exploit or trolling, I'll do it. If you feel offended by that just report the post m'kay.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

 alpha78, on October 16 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Came back to play over the last few weeks just to see how the game has changed and it's just too obvious the broken balance in some siege matches.

One player can make a huge impact on some games.  There is one player that I've run into a few times now that just stands on the base and waits for ships to shoot at.  I have absolutely no idea how he/she get's any enjoyment at all out of playing like that, but it basically screws whatever team he/she's on.  

Then there's the tech...  I was on a loosing team the other day and it was pretty obvious we were going to loose.  Then I realized there were no techs in the match so I ran one for our team.  Not saying I won the game for our team, but we did end up winning a game that we should have lost.  We controlled the AA from that point on.  The other team never put up a tech on their side and couldn't break our heavy/tech combo.  I think the score was double digits (62 or something) - 0.

All it takes is a slight imbalance to throw a game.  One or two players that either don't understand the mechanic or simply aren't good at all against a team w/ good players and it's just boring.  Campers/snipers (including preds) play a role in unbalanced siege games too.  When you need bodies in the AA and you've got 3 reapers hanging off in the distance picking at the other team on the AA and they've got 5 people in there, you're basically not going to have a good time.  It always becomes a 5 v 2 or 5 v 1 scenario at the AA and we all know how those odds play out.  Being on the winning side is boring on these games and being on the loosing side is just frustrating.

I know this has all been hashed out before and I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but just have to vent.

I think in terms of people not understanding an objective based game mode you have hit the nail on the head. i That however doesn't mean siege it self is imbalanced.  RAther what you have discovered is that people play a game mode willfully ignorant of the rules of the game and not only that...may not speak english despite playing on say US East Coast servers.  On top of that they don't pay attention to chat and too few people have a headset mic...and those that do even fewer have it calibrated properly.

The problem with siege is people.  They choose to play the game their own way regardless of the format.  Or they might simply just be trying to level up a particular mech.  In either case they are ignoring the team dynamic and just XP/HC grind in siege.  

When I see that we have even a single reaper on the team in siege I immediately leave.  TEchs aren't an imbalance in siege but are just another choice on how to customize your team.  A team of 5 heavies and 1 tech will often dominate a mixed force simply due to increased HP.  Having all that mass to push and hold an AA is important.

If people have a lot of vanguards and brawlers on teh AA you can use Grenadiers and Incinerators to break up the groups of people clustering.  Having 1 predator on a team is fine but two is pointless as they are not great at staying alive on the AA.  If reapers and sharpshooters want to snipe outward from the AA that is fine but often they do not.  They may aid in the killing of some people on the aa but do not actually contribute anything positive to their own side's control counter.

Its a problem with people...collaboration/team work and there being no way to enforce it.  There's no vote-to-ban button to get rid of useless players and sometimes people come and go rapidly from servers creating other types of imbalances.  That is an issue with the server browser not displaying enough pertinent information like the current game score or time left in the match.  The game is still in beta so assuming the devs EVER come back well then...maybe we'll get some functional improvements.

[Odinous]

How many times should we say that its not Hawken's flaw the balancing we are getting nowadays_
The balancer itself is fine but:
a.we have low population
b.some people are dumb

We have many newbies joining higher tier games and there is were are so called imba veterans doing their mistakes.Lets say someone who havent played siege many time joins a game.Do you know what happens_Some of the so called good players starting the "fuzzy bunny you noob", "get the fuzzy bunny out you noob etc etc".Maybe try giving them directions next time.Thank god the first time i played siege,i had spent already many hours in tdms,seriously now my first siege was after playing like 2-3 months of tdm.Few people these days are tying to help new people around.We were all newbies at some point.The interesting part is that few new pilots with proper guidance(ofc whenever they get one) are learning faster than you think.

Edited by Odinous, October 19 2014 - 06:57 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

As of directions right now, you cant make it more obvious in term of visual feedback. Have you ever looked at the AA when ships are launched_ Blinking blue or red with a Skyrim arrow quest and yellow or red blinking perimeter of light around. It's actually harder to aim with all this junk. Add to that the usual enemy sighted and help requested cues. What's game chat or (working) VOIP compared to that_ Need a disco ball and some bunny girls too_

People are not stupid, they're greedy. They learnt the game, they are well aware of the meta, especially if they're in a Reaper. They saw their score and the low risk / high reward to abuse the sheit out of it.