89 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

EMEUTIER, on October 27 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

When I was using it I more often than not ended up panicking and EMP'ing myself or EMP'ing someone then chasing them down to finish the kill which usually ended up with me being surrounded by 3 enemy's.
I did not think it was overpowered as it does take some skill to accurately hit someone, it doesn't really shut you down for too long and you can still boost away sometimes safely.

That sounds like extremely bad play. Can't judge balance of a device if you're playing like that.



Here's a way to think of EMPs (and keep in mind, my scenarios take place between experienced and equally skilled players):

EMPs negate your ability to do damage. Your only option at this point is to use your mobility to avoid taking damage.
However, A-Class mechs are inherently more mobile than B or C Class mechs.
This means that the EMP favors A-mechs over B or C class mechs, since the higher mobility of an A class means retreat is much harder, or impossible for the other weight classes. An A-class can run from a B or C class, B classes can only run from C classes and C classes can run from nobody.
An A-class can completely negate the health advantage a C-Class has over them during the duration of an EMP. By the time an EMP wears off, you can take down a C-class mechs health to below that of a stock A-class.
On the other hand, as A-classes are dependent on mobility, EMP does not effect their main strength over B and C classes.

Imagine if there was an ability that prevented you from dodging and boosting for a short period.
C-class mechs would benefit great because they can sit there and trade blows, while A-class mechs would be screwed over almost every time.
Does that seem balanced_
If you don't think so, they you shouldn't think the EMP is fine either, because it works in the same manner, with the advantage automatically going to the lighter mech.

tl;dr The problem is that the EMP isn't equally useful for all weight classes. A-class mechs benefit more and suffer less than B and C classes.



P.S.
Oh, and it's also bunny fuzzying easy to use.
Just point at the ground/wall near your target and if they aren't at mid-long range, congrats, you've just EMP'd someone.
That fuzzy bunny needs to change.

[Taihus]

I'd say that an easy fix for the EMP is to reduce its effective radius against enemies, but keep the same radius for friendly and self EMPing.

[Beemann]

Rotaken, on October 27 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

It's way for inexperienced pilots to take out experienced pilots and escape battles.

That's not how balance works though
If something is causing THAT MUCH of a shift in combat, then it's MUCH more useful than pretty much any other device in the game (limited or otherwise)
As well, what's to stop an experience pilot from getting even BETTER usage out of it_

[Brevillance]

idk why everyone complains about this. In A2, I died twice due to EMP, and got hit with EMP's a retarded amount of times. If they hit you, utilize cover, and run and dodge like a crazy chicken. Don't try to dodge in front of them, 180 and book it around some corners. My experience has told me many people will just go find someone else because you-ll be ready for them when they come looking anyways. /shrug, i don't see it as a I-Win button...

Edited by Brevillance, October 27 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[She]

I can't think of a reason to use any other 3rd item over it

[AsianJoyKiller]

Brevillance, on October 27 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

idk why everyone complains about this. In A2, I died twice due to EMP, and got hit with EMP's a retarded amount of times. If they hit you, utilize cover, and run and dodge like a crazy chicken. Don't try to dodge in front of them, 180 and book it around some corners. My experience has told me many people will just go find someone else because you-ll be ready for them when they come looking anyways. /shrug, i don't see it as a I-Win button...

As I said before, the problem is that the EMP isn't equally useful for all weight classes. A-class mechs benefit more and suffer less than B-classes, and C-classes get the shaft.
There's also the fact that it's incredibly, stupidly easy to use for how powerful it is.

[AsianJoyKiller]

She, on October 27 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

I can't think of a reason to use any other 3rd item over it

Also another good point.
It has superior utility compared to the other support devices.
Both radar items are fairly situational in their usage.
The EMPs situation usefulness extends to pretty much any time your in close-mid range combat.

[Zeshi]

Maybe instead of getting rid of/nerfing emp, they could just add a movement emp (maybe make it a blue color) that knocks out boosters instead of weapons. That would mitigate the class balance issue at least. I realize that answer probably sounds horrifying to some people though .

[FluxX]

Beemann, on October 27 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

It's a point-and-fire explodes-on-contact fast projectile that can affect anyone in the radius.

Apparently you're supposed to just run away and heavily utilize cover no matter what the circumstances are

I've complained extensively about it too

I get hit by an EMP maybe once out of 3 games. If someone is using it a lot, or I'm running into their face (going "muhuhuhuhuha!") then I might get hit more often. A/D+shift instantly dodges it. If they fire at the ground, it's more likely to miss depending on your movement, or even hit themselves depending on your distance.

[IceTonic]

Yourgrandma, on October 27 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

If you let your self get hit with a emp you generally deserve it. Haven't had much trouble with emp, most of the time i end up getting caught in the blast as well making us both useless. Usually looks something like this

Yes, you really do deserve it if you go around a corner only to meet a mech immediately throw out an EMP on reflex which would hit you even if you dodged immediately after seeing the projectile. If the EMP didn't travel as fast as it does, it would be fine but I now see it more often than I comfortably would as a sort of close-combat win button.

I do what should be common sense, run away, take cover and spin around a building with the enemy mech trying to catch me because if I don't it is an instant lose/death until my systems are back. Still, the huge duration, radius and projectile speed will attract people later on in Open Beta to always use that if nothing is changed to make it harder to use.

I'd take the EMP over the HE Charge, just because of how easy it makes things, but I don't use it.

Taihus, on October 27 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I'd say that an easy fix for the EMP is to reduce its effective radius against enemies, but keep the same radius for friendly and self EMPing.

All it really needs is to have a slower projectile, make the duration be completely dependent on how close you were to the explosion (if it isn't already) and have it work for about 2-3 seconds since you still need to start-up again which will take a couple in itself. Then it would still be useful, without being spammed offensive all the time.

Zeshi, on October 27 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Maybe instead of getting rid of/nerfing emp, they could just add a movement emp (maybe make it a blue color) that knocks out boosters instead of weapons. That would mitigate the class balance issue at least. I realize that answer probably sounds horrifying to some people though .

That is worse, at least the current EMP allows you to escape until the effect ends but this cuts off any means of escape unless you're fighting a Class-C in Turret mode. No dodge, no escape, of course you can still shoot but if you don't destroy the other mech (and hope he has no friends with him) you're pretty much left for dead.

Terrible idea. Might as well just make that EMP control your mech, have it pretend its a Class-C going into Turret mode where it literally bends over so every mech has the chance to put their explosive tubes and seeds beads in every fuzzy bunny your mech has because it isn't going to look any prettier even if you can fight back.

[Dreizehn]

I use the EMP on a heavy, and it can be the deciding factor of a duel. Frankly I think the projectile is slow enough, fairly predictable and there's the risk of shutting yourself or your friends down. Also you get only one. It may be in the favour of the faster mechs, but not enough to matter I reckon.

Also it seriously isn't that hard to pull back a bit and jump back in. I have had my weapons disabled and still won the fight anyway.

[AsianJoyKiller]

IceTonic, on October 27 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Zeshi, on October 27 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Maybe instead of getting rid of/nerfing emp, they could just add a movement emp (maybe make it a blue color) that knocks out boosters instead of weapons. That would mitigate the class balance issue at least. I realize that answer probably sounds horrifying to some people though .

That is worse, at least the current EMP allows you to escape until the effect ends but this cuts off any means of escape unless you're fighting a Class-C in Turret mode. No dodge, no escape, of course you can still shoot but if you don't destroy the other mech (and hope he has no friends with him) you're pretty much left for dead.

Here's the thing, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again:
A-class mechs benefit more and suffer less than B or C class mechs from EMP.
If you're in a C-class mech, escape is not an option unless fighting another C-class. They are bigger, slower and less agile than both B and A classes. This is also a problem for B classes when fighting A classes.
It's a cake walk to keep up with a EMP'd C-class no matter how hard they try to avoid damage when you're lighter and faster than they are. On the other hand, it's easy to dodge and run from a C-class when you've been EMP'd as a lighter class.

Zeshi's proposal, while terrible (and I pointed this out earlier too), points out the problem.
An ability that removed mobility would favor the heavy mechs over the light ones because C-classes have the health to slug it out head to head, while A-class mechs depend on their mobility for survival.
The EMP allows an A-class mech to completely negate the health advantage of heavier mechs, but when a heavy mech EMPs a A-class, their main advantage, mobility, is not impacted at all.

[IceTonic]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 28 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Here's the thing, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again:
A-class mechs benefit more and suffer less than B or C class mechs from EMP.
If you're in a C-class mech, escape is not an option unless fighting another C-class. They are bigger, slower and less agile than both B and A classes. This is also a problem for B classes when fighting A classes.
It's a cake walk to keep up with a EMP'd C-class no matter how hard they try to avoid damage when you're lighter and faster than they are. On the other hand, it's easy to dodge and run from a C-class when you've been EMP'd as a lighter class.

Zeshi's proposal, while terrible (and I pointed this out earlier too), points out the problem.
An ability that removed mobility would favor the heavy mechs over the light ones because C-classes have the health to slug it out head to head, while A-class mechs depend on their mobility for survival.
The EMP allows an A-class mech to completely negate the health advantage of heavier mechs, but when a heavy mech EMPs a A-class, their main advantage, mobility, is not impacted at all.

You did not need to reply to me, I just found it terrible to suggest adding additional table-turning items itself until what can be decided to not have the current EMP as devastating as it is. The EMP has a clear problem, and it should be adjusted first rather than throw in ideas of another cheap item, as it would only fix one part of an issue while creating another as you know. If Class-C's can tough it out with the movement disable, why not see first how well they would do with a nerfed duration/radius with the current problem, the EMP_ I'd rather not have HAWKEN get so bad because everyone carries EMP & Mech-traps Death Traps until they become rebalanced.

Really, that scenario should never happen. That would make everything worse and I'm just pointing that out. EMP rebalance first, add Bear Trap next, adjust if it is too OP and we're all good.

[EMEUTIER]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 27 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

EMEUTIER, on October 27 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

When I was using it I more often than not ended up panicking and EMP'ing myself or EMP'ing someone then chasing them down to finish the kill which usually ended up with me being surrounded by 3 enemy's.
I did not think it was overpowered as it does take some skill to accurately hit someone, it doesn't really shut you down for too long and you can still boost away sometimes safely.

That sounds like extremely bad play. Can't judge balance of a device if you're playing like that.

Dude, what the heck are you talking about_ Bad play_ this is pretty much what all newcomers to the game will do. And what has that got to do with judging balance_
Remember, what I said I was doing was in alpha 1, I obviously don't play like that now.

Still my point stays the same. No problem with the EMP. Adjust your tactics around it.

[Rotaken]

Beemann, on October 27 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Rotaken, on October 27 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

It's way for inexperienced pilots to take out experienced pilots and escape battles.

That's not how balance works though
If something is causing THAT MUCH of a shift in combat, then it's MUCH more useful than pretty much any other device in the game (limited or otherwise)
As well, what's to stop an experience pilot from getting even BETTER usage out of it_

Morale. I try my best to not use it against inexperienced pilots (well,don't need to) as I see it's unfair. Of course this does not apply to everybody :/

[AsianJoyKiller]

EMEUTIER, on October 28 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on October 27 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

EMEUTIER, on October 27 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

When I was using it I more often than not ended up panicking and EMP'ing myself or EMP'ing someone then chasing them down to finish the kill which usually ended up with me being surrounded by 3 enemy's.
I did not think it was overpowered as it does take some skill to accurately hit someone, it doesn't really shut you down for too long and you can still boost away sometimes safely.

That sounds like extremely bad play. Can't judge balance of a device if you're playing like that.

Dude, what the heck are you talking about_ Bad play_ this is pretty much what all newcomers to the game will do. And what has that got to do with judging balance_
Remember, what I said I was doing was in alpha 1, I obviously don't play like that now.

Still my point stays the same. No problem with the EMP. Adjust your tactics around it.

You can't speak about balance when you lack experience.

[Timber_Wolf]

As someone who played quite a bit of C class during the alpha and a lot of C class during the beta, I agree entirely with AsianJoyKiller.  When you're an A class or even B class it's not that hard to dodge around and focus entirely on that instead of shooting, but when you're a fatty there's not a lot you can do, especially if you happen to be in turret mode defending a point.  I really love the idea of the emp, but it's ridiculously good on C class.
Maybe turret mode could prevent certain items effects_  It'd make turret mode more useful, too.

[SilentCid]

When I'm in my b class mech I use my EMP as a defense mechanism to run away when someone is overrunning my position. I used that brief opportunity to escape in a different  direction while he goes after someone else. Works well in the maps with multiple levels.

[Zeshi]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 28 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Zeshi's proposal, while terrible

Yea...i wrote that pretty late last night. I think i was just thinking about balancing and not about overall op-ness. For the record, I'm not in favor of it haha. I would rather see EMP nerfed so that it only lasts 3 secs (i think it lasts 5 right now) and also the farther you are away from the blast the less time you're disabled.

The problem is like Asianjoykiller said even if you nerf it, its still unbalanced in favor of A's :/. How would you suggest they change it so that its balanced across classes_ Or would you rather it just be removed entirely_

[Ninjaman999]

Exactlyyyyyyyy
A big part of this game is reservation whether it be heat from your guns, your grenades or your jets, people are going all COD most of the time XD