31 replies to this topic

[Flappers]

If this game were to go Buy to Play, then we would most likely see e-sports swiping this up, and creating quite a scene for it.
I would love to be part of a group who plays this competitively, but unfortunately, with the current model, that is impossible. (Currently being able to pay for advantages in the game - esport scenes look down on that sort of thing)

Edited by Flappers, October 28 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[Ganelon]

League of Legends~

[CakeBandit]

Dota 2

[Flappers]

I'm not saying that Free to Play =/= esports.

I'm saying that THIS game in with it's current model won't make it to esports.

In LoL and DOTA, you cannot pay for advantages.
In Hawken you can.

Please read the OP. Paying for advantages =/= free to play with most games.

[CakeBandit]

There are a lot of ways microtransactions can be done right. We just have to sit back and hope that adhesive games does it right. When you're putting together a game you start with the financial model. When you're pitching it to potential investors you have to have projected earnings all laid out for people to ogle and hopefully be willing to risk their cash on. At this point in the game, it's too late to change model. Especially considering they gave out thousands of beta keys already.

Esports tends to gravitate to gameplay that is readily observed by the average user. If they were going to do anything to entice the E-sports crowd they should actually look into adding a spectator client. The average Joe isn't interested in the first-person perspective of the player. They're interested in seeing the big picture as everything comes together and maybe occasionally checking into a first person perspective to see some particularly clever trick or heated engagement. That's why Starcraft and the Dota-likes have been so successful. Dota2 has especially been built with the idea of a viewing audience in mind.

[Immie]

Flappers, on October 28 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

In LoL and DOTA, you cannot pay for advantages.
In Hawken you can.

What gameplay affecting item can you buy with money that you can't earn by playing_

[Flappers]

Immie, on October 28 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Flappers, on October 28 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

In LoL and DOTA, you cannot pay for advantages.
In Hawken you can.

What gameplay affecting item can you buy with money that you can't earn by playing_

By actually obtaining levels in this game, your mech becomes much stronger than ones that are lower level.
You can purchase Boosts which allow you to gain this strength and not forgetting the items and mechs which costs are completely out of range for a free player.
You are effectively forced to spend money on this game if you want to progress.

In the other games which are in esports, you do not gain any advantages by being a particular level.

Yes, in LoL, you need to have time behind you own the neccessary 16 champions required for rank play, and be level 30. But new players can't just jump in and play competitive.
In shooters you can.

COD/ UT/ Quake... all of these shooter games do not give you any advantages by having play time or money spent behind you.

If this game were buy to play, without purchasable enhancements, then every player would be on an equal footing, instead of the free players suffering at the hands of the paying players.

In this game... Paying players will have more powerful mechs than free players.
Tell me that this is not true.

[Immie]

Flappers, on October 28 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

You are effectively forced to spend money on this game if you want to progress.

No, you're not. Plain and simple. I could not spend a dime on this game, max the garage and compete with the best. I even save a few bucks doing it.

[Th4nis]

Immie, on October 28 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Flappers, on October 28 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

You are effectively forced to spend money on this game if you want to progress.

No, you're not. Plain and simple. I could not spend a dime on this game, max the garage and compete with the best. I even save a few bucks doing it.

I second that thought. Of course, that means playing more than paying players, but except for vanity parts, you can unlock everything with HP. Of course, in order to be in esport, the main problem would be to find enough players...

[beastlybeast]

In another forum the community manager guy said something about making things cost less and that they will tweak the earnings so you gain more Hawken points per round. Also in alpha I had the sharpshooter with offense maxed out and I still got my ass handed to me by more agile and close range mechs.

[Canstaht]

As of yet, this game has avoided the 'pay to win' model. If you've read any of the interviews they prefer to aim for the 'pay to be fabulous' model, where you gain aesthetic appearance or modifications that give no in game advantage. I see no problem for buying upgrades/mechs/weapons with cash, as long as they are attainable for free players.

It's how Tribes is. Sure it takes more play time and dedication to earn upgrades, but by the same token, simply having upgrades doesn't make you a better pilot. It also doesn't give such a large advantage that you can't compete. An unmodified, unleveled mech can kill a fully optimized one if played well.

Although if this was a purchase copy game, I'd be content with that option too.

I haven't seen any advantages that can't be attained or earned without cash. Until that is the case, there's nothing wrong with the current model.

[HazaRDReborN]

You are not forced to pay money and the unbalancing is not that extreme. I was playing with no upgrades, no tech points spent, no items (internal or external) for around 6-8hrs yesterday and went up against many different players. Although many had improvements, they still where not completely imbalanced, sometimes they where but the gap was very small. This is a good thing and shows that progressing in the game and making a mech gradually better closes the already small gap. Also, it isn't an RPG, lvling up a mech doesn't take more than some days, in which time enough xp is built up to obtain the items as well. Lastly, to make this an e-sports event, they can easily release a different game mode that has all items and upgrades unlocked, it really is that simple. It doesn't have to become a purchasable game to qualify for e-sports.
I see where you are coming from with examples such as UT and Q3, I myself played those to death and I am very concerned with the balancing in this game, it was one of the main things I was trying to notice if they have done right. And so far I see a very good job done, most of my fears are gone and I have some faith in this game even with it's current model. I would like some changes and cheaper xp prices for some items, but other than that it is pretty balanced.

Edited by HazaRDReborN, October 28 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Trisomy21]

I'm also playing the Planetside 2 beta, it's f2p but relying on micro-transactions for things that everyone can earn in the game. I see it working well for them because they've already got a massive player base, I guess we'll see how it works here.

[gunhe4d]

So the logic here is, this game is free, but players spending let's say 30 bucks, can buy boosters and gain an unfair advantage over players who choose to progress without buying boosters.  So let's make everyone pay 30 bucks to eliminate the unfair advantage people who pay 30 bucks get.  See the problem here_

People who are serious about competitive play will probably invest as much as it would cost if this game were sold on store shelves, if not more.  Otherwise, the amount of time they put into the game to practice for competitive play would put them at max level.  So I don't think your "pay to win" problem actually exists.

[D20Face]

Because I really don't feel like typing this all out again

[Elix]

gunhe4d, on October 28 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

So the logic here is, this game is free, but players spending let's say 30 bucks, can buy boosters and gain an unfair advantage over players who choose to progress without buying boosters.

Let me stop the argument right there. How is that even an unfair advantage_ The only "unfair advantage" someone with purchased boosts gets is that they get exp or HP faster. Don't want to buy boosters_ Play more.

You either give Hawken your time or your money. That's what those boosts are. They convert money into collapsed time, that's all they do. And then there are cosmetic items.

And that's a reasonable way to do a F2P model.

Edited by Elix, October 28 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Glothrenite]

to my knowledge League of legends is currenty the most played/largest prize money esports game. and hawken looks to be adopting a similar model ...

Totally don't get what this thread is saying... if anything i'd say its the other way around .. also i don't think paying a purchase price has any impact on this aspect at all.

[Lord_Trent_Kellan]

Glothrenite, on October 29 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

to my knowledge League of legends is currenty the most played/largest prize money esports game. and hawken looks to be adopting a similar model ...

Totally don't get what this thread is saying... if anything i'd say its the other way around .. also i don't think paying a purchase price has any impact on this aspect at all.

I play League of Legends as well, and yes, it is.  League of Legends allows you to pay real money to unlock new characters (mechs), or get xp or ip (xp or hp here) boosts, which do little but help you purchase new parts a bit faster, and to purchase new skins (aesthetics).  Money does not in League, just as it does not here, allow you to gain massive stat boosts or allow you to purchase specific champions or runes (actually, you can't buy any runes at all with real money) that free players could not get. This is the same case here.  This is fair, a very effective model, and helps it to not be 'pay to win'.  If this game were pay-to-win, then that would discourage new players.
As for the boosts, all it does is help new players get ahead a little bit faster or catch up.  They do not raise the max cap or allow players to attend new, unfair heights.

Edited by Lord_Trent_Kellan, October 29 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[RockSlide]

Flappers, on October 28 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

In LoL and DOTA, you cannot pay for advantages.
In Hawken you can.

You forgot about rune pages in LoL. Runes are items that give you small stat boosts to various attributes. You use real/in-game currency to purchase these items.

Not to mention if you are not level 30 in LoL you don't have all the special mastersies and summoner spells available to you.

So since LoL did it, Hawken would have no problem because the system is almost the same.

Edited by RockSlide, October 29 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[Tezkat]

Flappers, on October 28 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

If this game were to go Buy to Play, then we would most likely see e-sports swiping this up, and creating quite a scene for it.
I would love to be part of a group who plays this competitively, but unfortunately, with the current model, that is impossible. (Currently being able to pay for advantages in the game - esport scenes look down on that sort of thing)

I fail to see what advantages you can buy in Hawken with cash that cannot also be bought with time. Do you consider pretty mech designs or camo to be a competitive advantage in high level play_


Honestly, the reason that games like League of Legends are currently doing so well as eSports is because they are free to play. The F2P business model provides a massive base of players (i.e. potential viewers), a relatively low financial barrier to entry for high level competitors, and (perhaps most importantly) a way to monetize viewership such that developers have an economic incentive to foster a professional gaming scene. Riot can afford to spend millions of dollars on LoL tournament seasons because they are seeing that return.


As far as Hawken as an eSport, rest assured that the dev team is working hard on making that happen. (Hopefully, they'll prioritize getting the servers working properly first, but eSports is still pretty high on the list.) They're developing a very eSports focused spectator client, which is something FPS games have historically been lacking. (Check out Firefall for what shooters could look like with a really good observer UI.) They even have plans for eSports oriented game client modes designed to level the playing field across teams. And they're already in negotiations to get their game into ESL and MLG.