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What Hawken Isn't -- Is that okay_


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#1 TemperWolf

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Posted October 30 2012 - 03:48 PM

I intend this post and topic to be utilized as constructive critique and feedback for the developers of Hawken — please keep commentary civil and take time to understand the prospective of each person taking part. I entitled this topic, What Hawken Isn’t --- Is that okay_, which indicates that I’m going to lay down a point of view and that I request the community to take time to talk about why they are for or against such points.
By now many testers are very well versed on just what Hawken is and how it handles and plays. The quality of the title in not in question, merely it’s long-term value and also a question on just which audience they are trying to appeal to. Do the developers of Hawken succeed in their goals_ Or do you feel that perhaps they are falling short and should consider changing their approach.

Remember we are dealing with what many consider an independent developer, but due to the size of the company and its steady growth towards release — keep in mind they are becoming less and less independent with each passing day. The end result is a product which is developed for the purpose of making money, often set as a priority over the enjoyment of the players.

Oh an please, please: don’t say “It’s just a Beta Test” because that really doesn’t mean anything at all and is in no way, shape, or form a piece constructive feedback.

Please no TL:DR bull, when I write something, I write it to be read -- not to be ignored for someones heartless summary.



What Hawken Is (to me)

Hawken is a First Person Shooter set in the future where every person is a robot. Understand that me stating that “every person is a robot” this is not how the game lore is written; or how the art is handled; or how the menu looks; or how the website looks; but it is the result we are given when we actually play game.

People who finally get their hands on the title quickly realize they are dealing with something very much more in the same genre as Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, Battlefield, Tribes, and Modern Warfare. Through gameplay, the developers of Hawken made that Mechs are merely a cosmetic thing. The result is that Hawken is just your everyday FPS placing several mechanisms from current titles into a futuristic setting that is truly beautiful to look at.


What Hawken Isn’t (to me)

Hawken isn’t a Mech simulator, a Mech game, or any facsimile of a Mech game. The art however begs otherwise, which may lead a lot of people who are thirsty for a solid Mech simulator into believing Hawken is something that it’s not. Consider that it’s been 12 years since Mech Warrior 4 and there hasn’t been a solid Mech simulator to replace it yet. MechWarrior Online does not qualify as a solid simulator, as that has broken down the genre to pay-to-play elements to the point of being extremely tiresome.

Mech games are slightly different than Mech simulators. MechWarrior and Steel Battalion have long been the leaders of the simulation department, but the unquestionable leader of the Mech game department is without a doubt Armored Core. Developed by From Software, Armored Core has been an easy to step into Mech game that allows players to have a career and a pilot. Your goal is to not only improve your skills, but also the ultimately purpose of the game is to acquire a vast inventory of parts to freely paint them, arrange them, and even fine-tune their numbers however you want.

While simple to get into, Armored Core offered hours and hours of extremely difficult fine tuning and part collection that lead to countless unique machines that each representing an equally unique player. Let’s not forget that a mixture of the two genres game well before Armored Core in the form of Heavy Gear, a much more simplified Mech simulator that addressed more Fist Person Shooter mechanics with quick movement in the form of wheels and treads that would allow players to rapidly ‘skate’ across the battlefield — it was Hawken before Hawken existed.

Even Heavy Gear allowed players to make fine adjustments to their machines, even though they could not do extensive construction.

While Hawken may not be these things, that’s not exactly bad — what may be problematic is that it appears to be a Mech game. The Mech game and Mech simulator audience may not be so accepting of the final product, simply because it isn’t what it appears to be. Much of the game’s art and menu system goes well out of its way to say “Look, I’m a Mech Game too!” but in the end doesn’t offer anything of what people expect in a Mech game.

Sure it offers guns, missiles, jump jets, even a futuristic setting that is on the verge of collapse — pretty much the standard basics of any Mech sim or Mech game. But the problem comes from the sheer lack of the flexibility that the common Mech fan has come to expect.


Is that okay_ (my view)

The first thing I did as a Mech fan was enter the garage and try to switch out my weapon. I couldn’t. I then thought that perhaps I needed to buy more weapons, but I quickly found I couldn’t do that either. After a few minutes it eventually dawned on me that weapons were set into a predetermined pattern and that Mechs were actually just classes. Personalized load outs were impossible.

Furthermore, if I purchased a Mech and any additional set of cosmetic parts — I could not apply them to any other Mechs and the same was for paint schemes. Additional internal parts, items, etc. — all were just exclusive to the Mech they were purchased for. Experience points were only meant for the Mech too and were not related to the pilot in any way, which mean it was the Mech that was getting the experience points. Any person who has played modern FPS games with Microtransaction elements will immediately see that each Mech wasn’t a Mech at all — but a play-style.

A play-style firmly locked per-determined, which meant that personal desires were completely impossible. Want to be a medium machine that only has missiles and nimbly keeps a distance from all people only using those missiles for damage_ Well you can’t, missiles only come on huge Mechs and even still you need to use guns — if you want to work from range you absolutely have to be a sniper.

Want to be a small Mech that only runs around with a single sniper cannon_ Nope! What to buy a Mech, deconstruct it, and then use those parts to make a new one_ Well you can’t do that.  Can you fine-tune parts and personalize them to your tastes_ Nope, can’t do that either.

So the game not only feels like an FPS, but it also utilizes per-determined balance like other FPS games as well. Of course we’ll see more combinations of weapons of Mechs as the game progresses and gets closer to the release, but it doesn’t change the fact that everything is isolated to one machine and if you choose to no longer play that machine you have to start all over again. Not exactly very career-like, because you’ll to buy every part, every upgrade, and god forbid every paint scheme more than once. You can’t even personalize the color of your Mechs much less make them look how you want.

I really don’t understand why the developers have chosen and worked so hard to make the game look like a Mech game, and a very beautiful one at that — only to completely ignore and omit all forms of Mech-style gameplay. First Person Shooter games are flooding the market left and right, and I know I’m completely tired of them. I hoped that an independent developer would finally bring back the Mech Simulators that so many people have forgotten about and chosen to overlook, but instead I just get another FPS game. Indeed, I am disappointed.

I know that Hawken will never be the Mech Simulator or Mech game I hoped it was going to be, and I have no intention of forcing them to make it. I’m just sharing my disappointment in a manner I hope others can discuss in a constructive manner.

Now you do the same:

What Hawken is_ (to you)
What Hawken isn't_ (to you)
Is that Okay_ (Your view)

Review each other's comments and views and discuss accordingly in a constructive manner.

Edited by TemperWolf, November 04 2012 - 09:59 PM.


#2 FenixStryk

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Posted October 30 2012 - 04:01 PM

Hawken is not a mech simulator, but it is still very much a mech game... albeit, mixed in with its fair share of aspects you'd expect in store-bought arcade shooters. Heat, fuel management (you are dashing everywhere) and constant repairing define this game. I see Hawken compared to Quake a lot, but the way you move in Hawken is hardly similar. Use of cover is heavily prioritized because of how limited your movement is in Hawken.

Hawken is aiming for a market between two extremes, and I do think that's okay. It's a great... "entry-level" mech shooter that offers an approachable amount of customization and movement typical to the sub-genre, without overwhelming those used to more human movement and weapon options.

I do think the customization is a little limited at the moment, but that can be solved without too much effort: all it takes is more chassis types, more internals and a more thorough level-up system.

Thanks for the write-up. It was a satisfactory read.

It was fun while it lasted.


#3 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 30 2012 - 04:38 PM

TL;DR
- Hawken doesn't conform to OP's idea of what a mech game should be.
- OP thinks Hawken should be a mech sim, not a mech shooter.
- OP makes sweeping general criticisms and assumptions about gameplay based on a game that has barely started it's closed Beta period and despite Meteor making statements that things will likely change quite a bit.



I've got to ask Temper:
How many hours have you played Hawken_
How many different mechs have you used_
What level have you gotten your mechs to_
How many points have you allocated in your optimization trees for a given mech, and in what trees_
What have you spent your free points on_
What did you know about Hawken before you got into the beta_

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#4 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted October 30 2012 - 04:50 PM

You're saying that this game isn't a mech game because it doesn't fit your narrow definition.

That's like saying S.T.A.L.K.E.R. isn't an FPS because it isn't like Golden Eye or Call of Duty.
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#5 TemperWolf

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Posted October 30 2012 - 04:54 PM

Funny, I recall just writing a huge post on describing why I feel Hawken merely only a Mech game cosmetically, Perhaps you should try reading it and add to the topic like Fenix did.

#6 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 30 2012 - 04:59 PM

I actually read everything.
And by the way, in the TL;DR part, the first two are factual statements, condensed versions of things you said, and one is an analysis of your method of criticism.

Can you actually answer my questions though_
Knowing your background with this game helps me judge the validity of what you wrote. As far as I know, judging from your other thread, you stopped playing the game almost immediately after getting into beta.

Take for instance the question "What did you know about Hawken before you got into beta_"
It helps me know how much research you did before hand, and whether you knew what you were getting into or just came in with your own preconceptions of what it would be.

Asking about how far you've progressed in the game, and how much time you've spent playing allows me to know how qualified you are to comment on matters related to the gameplay and how things work.

So please, respond to my questions so I can better respond to your post.
Because as it is, it looks like an opinion of what Hawken should be, written by a person who didn't do their research before hand and that they have barely played the game at all.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#7 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted October 30 2012 - 05:01 PM

Did read, just that you spent a lengthy amount of time saying something that was summarized so easily. And the analogy fits, you say Hawken isn't a mech game because it doesn't have absurds amount of customization. This is like saying S.T.A.L.K.E.R. isn't an FPS because it's not about mowing down legions in hallways. Hawken is a different take on mech games, just like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a different take on FPSes or how Men of War is a different take on RTSes. A genre is typically defined by what's in its name. A mech game is a game with mechs, just like an FPS is a shooter set in the first person or an RTS is a strategy game that is played real time. There are usually accompanying characteristics that help give it shape, but it's what's in the name that determines it.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, October 30 2012 - 05:02 PM.

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#8 Avlaen

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Posted October 30 2012 - 05:01 PM

I say This while being a long time fan of both Armored core and Mech warrior. hawken is still a mech game its a more "mainstream" mech game eg the mechs more closely resembling classes, but the movement and fighting style of the mechs is very different than other FPS games to me this makes it a "mech" game. No it dosent have the same level of customisation and tweaking etc and all the other sutff you want, but its core gameplay is still mech based, The fighting is mech based.

Im sorry if it didnt live up to what you wanted. but im massively enjoying hawken (more than i thought to i didnt think id like the more... Middle ground mech game its going for) as it is, i would like some more customisation options espeicaly weaponwise and more chassis' would help but i feel right now hawken is avery close to the perfect sweet spot of being a mechgame/fps.
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#9 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 30 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostTemperWolf, on October 30 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Funny, I recall just writing a huge post on describing why I feel Hawken merely only a Mech game cosmetically, Perhaps you should try reading it and add to the topic like Fenix did.
By the way, don't start calling people out for having bad attitudes when you are in turn just as venomous.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#10 Elix

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Posted October 30 2012 - 05:18 PM

Leaving aside discussions about what Hawken could be, and personal sniping and nitpicking, this is what I'm hearing:

"Hawken is not the game I wish it was and thought it was."

I haven't reviewed every single piece of PR that Adhesive/Meteor have done for Hawken, but every single thing I have actually looked at (e.g., interviews with gaming bloggers/journalists at E3/PAX/etc.) started with (basically) "Hawken is a mech-based F2P FPS". They've been very clear about what the underlying mechanics of their game are, broadly speaking. None of that sounds like Battletech-style mech sims.

There's nothing wrong with wishing for a different game. But I don't really know what you intend on accomplishing. The game is in closed beta. Even if the entire coding team at Adhesive believed the same as you, it's way too late to go back and completely change the game from its current balance as a fast-paced arena-style FPS to something more in the Battletech tradition. You already said goodbye because of this.

I just don't know what you hope to accomplish here. You're certainly welcome to have a contrary opinion, but what you're doing is basically amounting to wishing Hawken was the game you want, not the game Adhesive is actually making. That's great and all, But... what do you hope to do except have people either agree with you or criticize your post_ You yourself acknowledge that Hawken is not the game you wanted it to be, and it's too late for that to change in a measurable way.

I'm not being mean, I really want to know what goals you have in mind every time you write a post like this.
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#11 TurboJensen

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Posted October 30 2012 - 05:35 PM

What Hawken isn't is made up for in what Hawken is.

#12 Conquistador

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:13 PM

We need to stop shoehorning videogames into predetermined genres based on mechanics of gameplay. It's an absurd practice that really needs to be phased out. That's like calling Michael Bay movies part of a genre of explosive pyrotechnics or a ridley Scott movie part of a genre of panoramic camera filters. Or how about calling paranormal activity a movie in the first person handheld videocam  genre_

Absurd, I tell you. Hawken should be suitably classed as a much game simply based on its aesthetic, not its gameplay.
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#13 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostConquistador, on October 30 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

We need to stop shoehorning videogames into predetermined genres based on mechanics of gameplay. It's an absurd practice that really needs to be phased out. That's like calling Michael Bay movies part of a genre of explosive pyrotechnics or a ridley Scott movie part of a genre of panoramic camera filters. Or how about calling paranormal activity a movie in the first person handheld videocam  genre_

Absurd, I tell you. Hawken should be suitably classed as a much game simply based on its aesthetic, not its gameplay.

No, it'd be like calling both Scream and Paranormal Activity scary movies, which they are. The "mechanics" of the movie, from the plot to the cinematography is geared towards being scary. And mech game isn't really a "mechanic" thing, admittedly. Since the bare minimum for being a mech game, is being about mechs.

Admittedly, genres shouldn't be used quite as they are. Where it's a bunch of characteristics of a game that don't define the genre and anything without those mechanics are not "true (insert game here)," which is something the OP has done.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, October 30 2012 - 06:30 PM.

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#14 Dracoslayer16

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:24 PM

I read the whole OP and I gotta say I don't understand.  Are you saying you don't like that Hawken is a game with mechs in it because it is not a mech simulator_  I don't see how that is a problem.  Just because a game has something in it that has been used before doesn't mean it should be the same as others that came before it.  Yes this game is not a simulator but simply waving it off as "just another FPS" is also unjustified as anyone who plays CoD, BF or any other shooter will tell you the style is drastically different from other shooters by the inclusion of boosting, items, and even the basic movements of each mech.  All of these additions fit the theme of having robots or mech be the characters and in this case they went with mechs.
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#15 Garuda

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:27 PM

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#16 Da5id1an

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:40 PM

you are trying way too hard
you are upset because the game went for the class system as opposed to the infinetly open customize everything system which makes it much harder for casual players

Please refrain from language/terms that may be taken as offensive or disruptive to others.
try hard there
have fun here
k thx bai

Edited by Moderator01, October 31 2012 - 06:00 AM.
Causing disruption


#17 CakeBandit

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:54 PM

View PostTheChaffeemancer, on October 30 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

View PostConquistador, on October 30 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

We need to stop shoehorning videogames into predetermined genres based on mechanics of gameplay. It's an absurd practice that really needs to be phased out. That's like calling Michael Bay movies part of a genre of explosive pyrotechnics or a ridley Scott movie part of a genre of panoramic camera filters. Or how about calling paranormal activity a movie in the first person handheld videocam  genre_

Absurd, I tell you. Hawken should be suitably classed as a much game simply based on its aesthetic, not its gameplay.

No, it'd be like calling both Scream and Paranormal Activity scary movies, which they are. The "mechanics" of the movie, from the plot to the cinematography is geared towards being scary. And mech game isn't really a "mechanic" thing, admittedly. Since the bare minimum for being a mech game, is being about mechs.

Admittedly, genres shouldn't be used quite as they are. Where it's a bunch of characteristics of a game that don't define the genre and anything without those mechanics are not "true (insert game here)," which is something the OP has done.

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Edited by CakeBandit, October 30 2012 - 06:54 PM.

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#18 LordShade

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Posted October 30 2012 - 06:54 PM

Hawken is counterstrike with mechs

it says there right on the home page

wasn't that enough to give you a general idea of what this game was about_

#19 Moderator03

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Posted October 30 2012 - 07:42 PM

Posts should be constructive, inviting and positive.

If at anytime, you think a post violates the Rules and Guidelines, Report the post, and DO NOT reply to it.

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#20 Conquistador

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Posted October 30 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostTheChaffeemancer, on October 30 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

View PostConquistador, on October 30 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

We need to stop shoehorning videogames into predetermined genres based on mechanics of gameplay. It's an absurd practice that really needs to be phased out. That's like calling Michael Bay movies part of a genre of explosive pyrotechnics or a ridley Scott movie part of a genre of panoramic camera filters. Or how about calling paranormal activity a movie in the first person handheld videocam  genre_

Absurd, I tell you. Hawken should be suitably classed as a much game simply based on its aesthetic, not its gameplay.

No, it'd be like calling both Scream and Paranormal Activity scary movies, which they are. The "mechanics" of the movie, from the plot to the cinematography is geared towards being scary. And mech game isn't really a "mechanic" thing, admittedly. Since the bare minimum for being a mech game, is being about mechs.

Admittedly, genres shouldn't be used quite as they are. Where it's a bunch of characteristics of a game that don't define the genre and anything without those mechanics are not "true (insert game here)," which is something the OP has done.

I was referring to how the OP really, really wants to keep Mech game genres and FPS genres totally separate and exclusive from each other. Why can't we have a Mech FPS_ (Or an FPS Mech, if you're dyslexic.) If you read the first post, he's obsessed with the idea that a mech game can't be an FPS because it doesn't provide the proper mechanics of what he thinks to be a traditional mech game.
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