27 replies to this topic

[NIGHTRAV3N]

Let's discuss the equipment balance in CBE1 this past weekend.

First off, what do you guys think of the effectiveness of the EMP_ The time a mech is powered down has been GREATLY reduced. I think it fits the pace of the game a bit more then it's proto-integration.

Missile/Vulcan turrets:
Feel a bit obsolete in the arsenal the pilot has at their disposal, and not to mention the poor LOS iteration. They are more annoying then anything and as a vet I can say the H.E charges are more versatile. To each his own though depending on the given play style of the pilot..

H.E Charges:
Didn't really notice much of a difference in the current iteration of the charges. Standard grenade type equipment-being able to charge the velocity at which it's thrown is great. With all the explosive weapons in the game and their damage output I think the AOE/or damage of the charges should be scaled up a little bit.[or a detonation mechanic like the TOW instead of waiting for it to explode post throw/bounce]. A full charge for high velocity of the charge is needed for tech-throwing like ground/wall bounces. I will incorporate wall bouncing while thrusting to pin down the opponent to get the kill confirm[mechanic from a decade of halo play].

Radar/Scrambler:
I really like the introduction of the radar/scrambler on the battle field. At first I started off with radar as it sounded like a good choice, but after sufficient use I'm still inconclusive on it's effectiveness. It would be nice to know the effective range of the radar and the intel that is relayed to your comrades.
The  radar scrambler was my choice of equipment given it has a decent range of effectiveness against the opposing team. I like the 'sticking' ability present in the radar(s). Most people throw them on the floor and forget it, but from my experience I have found out they 'stick' to any environment and unfold for use. I personally will jet thrust and launch the radar(s) into a hidden/secluded area not very visible to the opposing team. Also a great tool for running away to repair from an enemy and covering your tracks while boosting away;]

Healing orb:
Has to be probably my favorite equipment in HAWKEN yet. Gives a nice heal to yourself/teammate at a fairly quick rate. Idk how many times this has saved my ass from a deadly firefight. Combine this equipment with a short self heal to get back to 100% operational. Really helps the pilots who don't invest In their mech's repair rate.

Shield:
Seems to work the same. Didn't get much use of it during CBE1. Would be nice to see a single click for self bubbling or hold key to project the shield towards a friendly pilot. Could use a clearer explanation as to what it negates as far as weapon contact/damage towards the player.

Hologram:
Another equipment that I didn't get to use in CBE1. Looks to function the same as before. Great tool to distract the enemy, but I feel like it could use a buff to be more practical in HAWKEN. Could iterate a moving animation like the hologram in halo:reach_ Could direct the hologram to the pilot's current position or a given coordinate the user directs the hologram to run towards.

What is your thoughts pilots on my HAWKEN equipment assesment_

[AsianJoyKiller]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 27 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Here's a way to think of EMPs (and keep in mind, my scenarios take place between experienced and equally skilled players):

EMPs negate your ability to do damage. Your only option at this point is to use your mobility to avoid taking damage.
However, A-Class mechs are inherently more mobile than B or C Class mechs.
This means that the EMP favors A-mechs over B or C class mechs, since the higher mobility of an A class means retreat is much harder, or impossible for the other weight classes. An A-class can run from a B or C class, B classes can only run from C classes and C classes can run from nobody.
An A-class can completely negate the health advantage a C-Class has over them during the duration of an EMP. By the time an EMP wears off, you can take down a C-class mechs health to below that of a stock A-class.
On the other hand, as A-classes are dependent on mobility, EMP does not effect their main strength over B and C classes.

Imagine if there was an ability that prevented you from dodging and boosting for a short period.
C-class mechs would benefit great because they can sit there and trade blows, while A-class mechs would be screwed over almost every time.
Does that seem balanced_
If you don't think so, they you shouldn't think the EMP is fine either, because it works in the same manner, with the advantage automatically going to the lighter mech.

tl;dr The problem is that the EMP isn't equally useful for all weight classes. A-class mechs benefit more and suffer less than B and C classes.



P.S.
Oh, and it's also bunny fuzzying easy to use.
Just point at the ground/wall near your target and if they aren't at mid-long range, congrats, you've just EMP'd someone.
That fuzzy bunny needs to change.

EDIT: A good example of how easy it is to use.
I didn't even realize I had it selected, and accidentally launched it at 8:50
http://youtu.be/pntDX26pSxI_t=8m48s

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 01 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[NIGHTRAV3N]

That's why I agree with the current mech shut down duration. I hardly ever encounter a fatal EMP attempt by my opponents. I agree with the quote posted about the weight class of a mech dictates the actual effectiveness of the equipment.

What is your thoughts on the rest of the equipment implemented in HAWKEN atm_

[Arcana13]

I also think the shutdown duration on the emp is fine rightnow, although fat mechs who wants to play tanky style without being close to a wall to dodge into might want to adapt to it.

y u no love for detonator__ It resembles the emp on how it lauches (the effect is obviously different). The first shot is manually detonateable while the second is bugged because you switch to another item if it is fired and can't detonate it anymore (correct me if I'm wrong). I prefer this over the HE since it deals atleast some guaranteed damage in many situations.

The HE still deals nice dmg and still needs skill to use. I don't want to get it buffed too much for the detonator/any other item to become useless though.

Turrets are awesome. Blocking my awesome side dash so I get killed is awesome. Shooting the TOW at it while it builds up and eat my own awesome explosion is awesomely awesome. Well...seriously... a well placed turret can be very annoying and it baits out shots to let you get detected on the radar. It also delays enemy pushes to some extend in siege/missile. It's fine as it is I think.

Moving holos could bait out more shots than it does rightnow. I want the devs to consider this buff.

I still don't get the shield thingy. If you are inside it negates a lot/all__ of the incoming bullets. TOWs explode on the shield and will only deal the splash to the mech in it. Nades/HE's sometimes gets through, sometimes explodes on shield__ From the inside you seem to be able to shoot out normally. I think selfbubble would be OP.  Though it could use a better system to lauch it on mates (charging it like you mentioned above or maybe revert it back like in alpha). Someone enlight me pls.

I don't like the heal orb cause there is only one of it. I might consider it if it contains 2 charges with less heal amount on each. Then again I could just drop the shield on a dead mech and repair there with the dead one's heal orb.

+1 on what you said there on the radar items.

sidenote: Check out the youtube link in my sig if you want to check on the shield. No I am totally not doing this to get more views on it!!

edit: there is actually quite a lot of different item usage (detonator, turrets, emp...) in my vid. Again... totally not related to the viewcount.

Edited by Arcana13, November 02 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[NIGHTRAV3N]

Haha my bad I forgot to mention the detonator. I thought I was missing one xD
Though I still haven't gotten the chance to use it yet.having two smaller heal orbs would be cool. It was a pain at first only having one per life, but after extended play I got use to when I NEEDED to use it vs wanting to. Just got used to doing self repairs at the right opportunity and saving the heal for the "oh fuzzy bunny" moments.LOL.

It would be cool to use some kind of proximity mine/sticky grenade explosive. Aside from the EDC repeater there isn't another sticky bomb/proximity arsenal

[Arcana13]

The orb is also pretty cool if you want your fatty mate in turret mode to tank more than 850 hp. Could be cool in siege mode.

Yeah mines would be pretty cool. There are those emp mines in Blacklight Retribution where you basically gets stunned and your movement and turn speed severely limited (is tactical and not often used). Might be cool in Hawken. BLR also has the coolest flashbang ever. It shuts down your vision and replaces it with a blue screen. The digi grenade (futuristic version of a smokenade) there is awesome to watch aswell. -> we need friggin smoke screen in this.

bleh I got my pink fancy glasses on again.

[hestoned]

NIGHTRAV3N, on November 02 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

It would be cool to use some kind of proximity mine/sticky grenade explosive. Aside from the EDC repeater there isn't another sticky bomb/proximity arsenal

Ohhh i got a feeling we might................

[Elix]

This might be better in suggestions, but what if the hologram exhibited basic pathfinding towards a random point selected by the game and appeared as a mech running and boosting SOMEWHAT realistically (to fool people at a glance, but not stand up to scrutiny)_ It would ignore any mechs, passing right through them, just to make it not too OP.

[NIGHTRAV3N]

Ya that's pretty much what I mentioned in my post. The user could direct a coordinate similar to enemy spotting;the hologram would travel towards that spot you mark

[defekt]

Turrets are fine as they are.  They're a Sharpshooter/Sniper's mini-spotter, a camping C-class mini-wingman vs bugs (A-class), a flank early warning device, and a damage shield (stand behind it).

HE Charges are fine as they are.  They do not need a remote detonate option; they already do more damage than the Detonator, they don't need to also steal what makes the Detonator distinct and useful.

Detonator is fine as it is (aside from the bug the prevents the second charge from being manually detonated).  Could do with much, much beefier sound though.

Scrambler is fine the way it is now.

Radar I'm not sure about; difficult to measure its effectiveness.

Healing Orb is okay.  Agree that it would be more desirable if it had two, less effective charges.

Shield seems to be suffering from an identity crisis.  If it's meant to only stop bullets then make it only stop bullets; all bullets, both ways.  Don't also let it stop/detonate low velocity munitions or allow some sort of confusing allied bullet shoot-through silliness.

Hologram only works vs new players.  Needs improvement.

[AsianJoyKiller]

NIGHTRAV3N, on November 01 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

That's why I agree with the current mech shut down duration. I hardly ever encounter a fatal EMP attempt by my opponents. I agree with the quote posted about the weight class of a mech dictates the actual effectiveness of the equipment.

What is your thoughts on the rest of the equipment implemented in HAWKEN atm_

EMP balance.
It's not about being fatal or not.
It's about the fact that it completely negates the defensive advantage of a C-class mech, while an A-class mech retains full defensive capabilities during and after being EMP'd.
After being EMP'd, a C-class mech should no longer have a health advantage (unless the EMP was purely for escape) over an A or B class mech, and always has a mobility disadvantage.

I'm fine with the current implementation of all the other items.

[Elix]

NIGHTRAV3N, on November 02 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Ya that's pretty much what I mentioned in my post. The user could direct a coordinate similar to enemy spotting;the hologram would travel towards that spot you mark

That could be badly OP. My idea is that the hologram acts in a quasi-random way (instead of holograms having 100% predictable properties) but not too perfectly like a human player. The server picks a spot for the hologram to go running off to, in my idea, not the player.

[RedleAruel]

The Missile/Vulcan turrets are not very practical in my opinion like death matches because you are moving about constantly, unless your holding ground or in a small area were it can get continuous fire on the enemy otherwise just jet away and shoot from afar. As far as the hologram I agree it should at least make more movement and "shoot" enemies with blank shoots be more realistic and have the option to give it walking directions. The hologram now just deploys and stays in place. Personal experience with it, it can confuse a enemy player for a few secs before noticing its not attacking or moving.

[Zeshi]

From the perspective of an infiltrator, trust me the machine gun turrets ARE NOT useless (when used against me). A well placed turret when defending a missile silo pretty much means i cannot attack in if the pilot is semi-competent.

Now the missile turrets...yea i have to agree with you there. Fire too slow and don't hit hard enough considering they are so easy to dodge.

[Saer]

I too am unsure about what exactly the shield can and cannot block, sometimes it seems like rockets penetrate and some bullet fire, sometimes it seems like nothing does. Would love a clearer explanation on its effectiveness as well.

Vulcan turrets seem fine but the missile ones are quite useless as they are..

[NIGHTRAV3N]

Elix, on November 02 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

NIGHTRAV3N, on November 02 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Ya that's pretty much what I mentioned in my post. The user could direct a coordinate similar to enemy spotting;the hologram would travel towards that spot you mark

That could be badly OP. My idea is that the hologram acts in a quasi-random way (instead of holograms having 100% predictable properties) but not too perfectly like a human player. The server picks a spot for the hologram to go running off to, in my idea, not the player.

I don't think it would be badly OP. A vet/noob could pilot could tell if it's a real player/hologram by looking at the mech glitches and if it has a gamertag associated with it. I think using the same implementation Bungie did with halo:reach could work in Hawken. IDK just an idea.

[NIGHTRAV3N]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 02 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

NIGHTRAV3N, on November 01 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

That's why I agree with the current mech shut down duration. I hardly ever encounter a fatal EMP attempt by my opponents. I agree with the quote posted about the weight class of a mech dictates the actual effectiveness of the equipment.

What is your thoughts on the rest of the equipment implemented in HAWKEN atm_

EMP balance.
It's not about being fatal or not.
It's about the fact that it completely negates the defensive advantage of a C-class mech, while an A-class mech retains full defensive capabilities during and after being EMP'd.
After being EMP'd, a C-class mech should no longer have a health advantage (unless the EMP was purely for escape) over an A or B class mech, and always has a mobility disadvantage.

I'm fine with the current implementation of all the other items.

Ahh I get your perspective on the EMP implementation, and I do agree with your statement. What could possibly be done then to avoid that mech class advantage_

[Elix]

Heavier mechs could be hardened to EMP and suffer the results for a shorter period of time than lighter-class mechs_ An Assault is EMP'd for (say) 5 seconds, while a C-class is only stunlocked for 2.5 seconds. B-class, I duno. The numbers are just an example to show what I mean.

If you're building a mech that isn't very mobile but has huge guns, and there is a weapon on the battlefield that disables guns, don't you think you'd try and find a way of mitigating that I-win button as totally as possible_

[Zeshi]

Elix, on November 02 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

If you're building a mech that isn't very mobile but has huge guns, and there is a weapon on the battlefield that disables guns, don't you think you'd try and find a way of mitigating that I-win button as totally as possible_

But B and C class mechs don't really have stronger guns than A classes (unless you count the vulcan as an upgraded assault rifle and you consider hellfire missiles actually stronger than other secondarys). They trade mobility for armor, not weapons, so even if a C class is emped, they still have their armor bonus just like A classes still have their mobility bonus.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Zeshi, on November 02 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Elix, on November 02 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

If you're building a mech that isn't very mobile but has huge guns, and there is a weapon on the battlefield that disables guns, don't you think you'd try and find a way of mitigating that I-win button as totally as possible_

But B and C class mechs don't really have stronger guns than A classes (unless you count the vulcan as an upgraded assault rifle and you consider hellfire missiles actually stronger than other secondarys). They trade mobility for armor, not weapons, so even if a C class is emped, they still have their armor bonus just like A classes still have their mobility bonus.

If you're a C-class and get EMP'd by a lighter mech, your effectively have to take a pounding because you are less mobile.
Once the EMP wears off, you can easily be left with less health than a stock A-class. Your defensive advantage is completely negated.

However, if you're a C-class and EMP a lighter class, they can evade you and run away until the EMP wears off.
At no point do they lose their defensive advantage over a C-class. They are able to return to the fight no worse for the wear.