51 replies to this topic

[D20Face]

LoganGoesPlaces, on November 09 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

As an infiltrator, it's the C class mechs that don't dodge that I consider basically free kills.  I can usually get quite a bit of damage in with the HEAT before I even get close.  Then quickly move in and dodge circles around you while using HEAT and Grenade.  That usually does the trick but if not its just a quick H.E. Charge before they are toast.

It is rediculously easy to avoid lock on, especially when you are close and dodging in circles too fast for them to keep up.

You obviously didn't read my post.

Good players only dodge when a projectile(Read, grenade/tow) has already announced its flight arc. Dodging before a player uses the secondary weapon just announces where you'll be for the next second and guarantees a grenade hit or even an HE hit on top of it.

Good Rocketeers don't lock on. They spray an area for guaranteed damage.

Good players will never let anybody run circles around them in a game this slow.

And you can get in a good amount of damage with the HEAT at range_ Good for you. The rocketeer can do just as much with the Repeater at range. Have fun not having as much health as that supposed easy target with similar DPS.

Edited by D20Face, November 13 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[BlackCephie]

I prefere EOC Inf over HEAT Inf, but the HEAT Cannon quite a diesel gun. I think the EOC, conceptually, i cooler though. It's like a silenced covert ops weapon.

[LoganGoesPlaces]

Sorry D20, I missed your "except when".  And I agree with you for the most part but I think your point works much better in open spaces than in areas with plenty of objects to hide behind.  With upgraded forward boosters it is very easy to squeeze of a distance shot and move closer and take cover while the HEAT recharges.  You can usually make up the distance very quickly.  And once the inf is within a few feet of the C class it is very easy to boost circles around them.  That is the point of having a fast moving mech.

I dont quite follow your "Good players will never let anybody run circles around them in a game this slow." comment... I suppose it is possible that I have never played with a good C class player but I can't count the number of times I have successfully used this strategy. Generally taking just a few hits while I am able to consistantly get hit in.

[DarkPulse]

I only got to play Infiltrator last night for the most part (no thanks to having to re-grind two of my mechs back up to Level 20... rrrgh) but from what I played of it, HEAT Cannon is absolutely not ridiculous on them.

• The shots actually do have a travel time. This is not a hitscan projectile. Therefore, the Infiltrator has to factor in not only the opponent's movement to ensure hits, he has to factor in his own as well. This takes skill. Even more skillfully, an uncharged shot only travels at half the speed of a charged shot.
  
• The best Infiltrators tend to play a pressure game. They use the might of the Grenade Launcher (and its respectable damage) to force moves. It's an awesome class if you love to play mind games with your opponent. (And arguably, mind games are the most fun aspect of it. )
  
• Infiltrators rely on speed and punch as otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance against the heavier mechs. For an A-Class, considering all the juking they do, they need to make sure that they have a reasonable chance of hitting their opponent.
  
• A cornered Infiltrator is a dead Infiltrator.

Furthermore, ask anyone who's played with me or against me: I ran a wicked Sharpshooter/Brawler tandem in CBE1, and through most of CBE2, though I've begun trying to level Assault, Infiltrator, and Rocketeer now. They all have their uses; good players will pick their class on respawn as needs dictate. Infiltrators are usually not what you send when there's 3 enemies on the AA, for example.

[D20Face]

LoganGoesPlaces, on November 14 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I dont quite follow your "Good players will never let anybody run circles around them in a game this slow." comment... I suppose it is possible that I have never played with a good C class player but I can't count the number of times I have successfully used this strategy. Generally taking just a few hits while I am able to consistantly get hit in.

Most people don't turn up their sensitivity when changing chassis.

I've done what you are saying to players in all chassis countless times. It's just the most notable on C classes because they've got harder accel to deal with. Most players have trouble dealing with the accel, if only at first(who are most people at this stage).

EDIT: I personally think that people going between cover are easier targets because their moves are even more predictable, but that's just me. Lots of better players prefer open spaces where they're assured that they have superior twitch.

DarkPulse, on November 14 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

They all have their uses; good players will pick their class on respawn as needs dictate. Infiltrators are usually not what you send when there's 3 enemies on the AA, for example.

Actually, if we're looking at good teamplay then light classes are what you use to break defenses. A shielded light mech is a powerhouse. An infiltrator with a shield would be able to bust that defense better than any other class barring possibly the berserker.

Conversely, you want heavier classes defending because you need something to withstand the initial onslaught that the offensive advantage entails. You can also expect to run out of shields and other consumables on defense, so you have to rely more upon pure HP and high damage output.

Edited by D20Face, November 14 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[nonsiccus]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

I personally think that people going between cover are easier targets because their moves are even more predictable, but that's just me. Lots of better players prefer open spaces where they're assured that they have superior twitch.

I seriously question this. If you're out in the open, you are susceptible to any hit-scan weapon. You are a sitting duck for anyone that can even remotely read your movement pattern. You are vulnerable to any amount of air-detonated misses, as well as shots that force your dodge. If you can dodge a HEAT round at close range, man, all the power to you. If you can twitch your way through a Vulcan salvo, please, show me how. After all of this, if you have enough fuel to disengage from the next opponent barreling at you, then I am one impressed skeptic. Otherwise, I see no benefit to being in the open over being around a corner where you can select when to engage, once your cooldowns are up.

[D20Face]

nonsiccus, on November 14 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

I seriously question this. If you're out in the open, you are susceptible to any hit-scan weapon. You are a sitting duck for anyone that can even remotely read your movement pattern. You are vulnerable to any amount of air-detonated misses, as well as shots that force your dodge. If you can dodge a HEAT round at close range, man, all the power to you. If you can twitch your way through a Vulcan salvo, please, show me how. After all of this, if you have enough fuel to disengage from the next opponent barreling at you, then I am one impressed skeptic. Otherwise, I see no benefit to being in the open over being around a corner where you can select when to engage, once your cooldowns are up.

The more you can see the more you can react to. Simple as that. It's not like your opponents are the only ones shooting.

When a person emerges from cover you shoot them. The better your twitch the faster you can do it. The issue with open spaces isn't about the inability to dodge, it's about how many opponents you may have to fight.

When people emerge from cover they're usually the first ones to get hit by a shot, not the other way around.

[DarkPulse]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Actually, if we're looking at good teamplay then light classes are what you use to break defenses. A shielded light mech is a powerhouse. An infiltrator with a shield would be able to bust that defense better than any other class barring possibly the berserker.

Conversely, you want heavier classes defending because you need something to withstand the initial onslaught that the offensive advantage entails. You can also expect to run out of shields and other consumables on defense, so you have to rely more upon pure HP and high damage output.

Ah, but you can't always count on good team play, and furthermore, it makes assumptions about the enemy standing inside narrow corridors on the lower level of the AA and the like. It's why some good defenses actually spread out a tad and play slightly off the AA (but easily within dash range of it) just so that they don't fall victim to a few Infiltrators wrecking house.

It makes it a worthwhile class to bust, though you definitely don't want a whole bunch of them.

[nonsiccus]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

The more you can see the more you can react to. Simple as that. It's not like your opponents are the only ones shooting.

When a person emerges from cover you shoot them. The better your twitch the faster you can do it. The issue with open spaces isn't about the inability to dodge, it's about how many opponents you may have to fight.

When people emerge from cover they're usually the first ones to get hit by a shot, not the other way around.

The more you see, the more can see you. Remember, your field of view is 90 at max, meanwhile you're observable from 360 degrees. Sure, you can get reasonably good at predicting inbound projectiles from behind you, but you are still presenting yourself as an obvious target. You could argue situational awareness using your radar, but again, hit-scan weapons will obliterate you without cover.

You've never baited a shot from behind cover_ From how you describe it, if I peek out from behind a corner using normal movement, you would fire immediately due to your twitch reactions. Any projectile weapon would then could be dodged back behind cover (or out, situation depending). Your weapon is now on cooldown, presenting a tactical advantage to the person behind cover. I guess if you're using a hit-scan weapon, you're less vulnerable than otherwise, but the advantage would still be to the guy behind cover because they decide when the engagement happens.

The only time I would agree that cover is not beneficial is if you're being kited. I'm still not convinced that being in open ground is a good idea in any game format, on any chasis and build. I'd be more than happy to be convinced otherwise.

[D20Face]

nonsiccus, on November 14 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

The more you see, the more can see you. Remember, your field of view is 90 at max, meanwhile you're observable from 360 degrees. Sure, you can get reasonably good at predicting inbound projectiles from behind you, but you are still presenting yourself as an obvious target. You could argue situational awareness using your radar, but again, hit-scan weapons will obliterate you without cover.

You've never baited a shot from behind cover_ From how you describe it, if I peek out from behind a corner using normal movement, you would fire immediately due to your twitch reactions. Any projectile weapon would then could be dodged back behind cover (or out, situation depending). Your weapon is now on cooldown, presenting a tactical advantage to the person behind cover. I guess if you're using a hit-scan weapon, you're less vulnerable than otherwise, but the advantage would still be to the guy behind cover because they decide when the engagement happens.

The only time I would agree that cover is not beneficial is if you're being kited. I'm still not convinced that being in open ground is a good idea in any game format, on any chasis and build. I'd be more than happy to be convinced otherwise.

By open I meant without cover nearby, not without a wall behind you. Holy heck that'd be suicide.

You should honestly almost never use a normal secondary unless
A)then have no room to dodge
B)Most commonly, they've just dodged
When dodges are up it's a simple button press to avoid a 200+ damage face melter. If a person dodges while your secondary is up, congratulations, you know where they'll be for the next full second.

A good player will know this and know how to essentially turn the secondary weapon of the opponent into wasted space in open terrain(NOT in closed spaces, where walls can be easily used to force dodge directions and guarantee a hit anyways)

[nonsiccus]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

By open I meant without cover nearby, not without a wall behind you. Holy heck that'd be suicide.

You should honestly almost never use a normal secondary unless
A)then have no room to dodge
B)Most commonly, they've just dodged
When dodges are up it's a simple button press to avoid a 200+ damage face melter. If a person dodges while your secondary is up, congratulations, you know where they'll be for the next full second.

What I'm reading here is that I place my heavy-hitting weaponry after a dodge. That should be common sense. My contention with your original idea was with not remaining in cover between shots. You've addressed the point about being seen from 360 degrees by saying that you'll keep a wall at your back. I don't see how that would negate the remainder of the vulnerabilities inherent to being in the open.

[DM30]

I'm seeing a good few arguments saying that Assaults with Vulcans are a good match for a standard Infiltrator. Problem with that argument: Assaults aren't meant to HAVE Vulcans. The devs have said so. This configuration is a mistake. Without that option, it seems like the 'viable counters for Infiltrators' list that's been proposed is a bit on the short side...

Personally, I can't say that I haven't been just a bit irked at seeing Infiltrators in the top two or three positions of a match (often the leader) with high regularity, but hey, if they're skilled players using the mech's strengths then fine. That just means I need to get better at my preferred chassis so that I can contend with them better. Although I think that their burst damage ability might be just a tad on the much side.

Edited by DM30, November 15 2012 - 03:06 PM.