35 replies to this topic

[hitabowl]

Nitris, on November 09 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

hitabowl, on November 09 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

...I just read the post above me and I completely disagree. You want this to become an elitist only game_ Sure sounds like it. I have a 2.41 KD (going up ) and I overheat as it is now (not regularly, but sometimes). It'll become a game of "Shoot until you overheat, run away and attempt a quick repair and repeat"...

It is quite simple, and I do it already ingame. I keep an eye on my heat gauge and will hold fire while concentrating purely on dodging for a few seconds until my gauge goes from red to yellow again, and then fire another burst, cool off for a few seconds while dodging and so on.
Overheating is supposed to be a really bad thing, and something you should be actively avoiding at all costs. It is like EMPing yourself-- You really shouldn't be doing that.
I really can't see how anyone with a brain would play like you said: "Shoot until you overheat, run away and attempt a quick repair and repeat". That is a death sentance against even half decent players.
All you'd have to do is chase them and, assuming you were managing your heat, you can shoot them for free while all they can do is attempt to dodge.

Obviously you don't run away properly if you get tracked down that easily. Hitting and running is an integral part of this game -- you should learn how. And I'm guessing you don't like to engage more than one opponent at a time. I like to test myself and push my mech to it's limits by taking out numerous opponents before I run away and repair. There's nothing more satisfying to me than jumping on  a silo site with 3-5 enemy mechs and seeing how many you can take out (and no I'm not a kamikaze, I'm usually able to capture silo sites by myself unless there's 2 decent C-class mechs in turret mode). Must be the CoD player in me...
PS, I love the use of your italics and your description as if I'm a complete fuzzy bunny. I thought I'd do the same for you.
PPS, I was using the example of "shoot until you overheat' to prove a point. Glad you took it out of proportion (see what I did there_ ). I'll clarify by explaining. I meant why would anyone continue to engage an enemy who now has extra health when they have lower heat thresholds and their heat gauge is almost at it's overheating point (for whatever reason)_ Personally, I would run away before my gauge got to that point in order to do a quick repair (assuming I'm facing an opponent of similar level to me), and if my opponent was smart, they'd do a quick repair as soon as I got out of range of them otherwise they'd risk an overheat (by chasing and shooting) and it would be an easy kill for me.

Edited by hitabowl, November 09 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[Hunderpanzer]

Nah. Health is fine I think. You need to strategize and use your skills / surroundings to your advantage.
I've been matched with plenty of fair and challenging fights where the top 3 players in each team have 20+ kills and 0 deaths.

As a matter of fact I see this happen quite often.  You have the ability to repair with drones and INSTANTLY repair from dead corpses... I think it's honestly a bit much to ask for more health in an FPS taking this into consideration.

Disagree with the OP.

[Nitris]

hitabowl, on November 09 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Obviously you don't run away properly if you get tracked down that easily. Hitting and running is an integral part of this game -- you should learn how. And I'm guessing you don't like to engage more than one opponent at a time. I like to test myself and push my mech to it's limits by taking out numerous opponents before I run away and repair. There's nothing more satisfying to me than jumping on  a silo site with 3-5 enemy mechs and seeing how many you can take out (and no I'm not a kamikaze, I'm usually able to capture silo sites by myself unless there's 2 decent C-class mechs in turret mode). Must be the CoD player in me...
PS, I love the use of your italics and your description as if I'm a complete fuzzy bunny. I thought I'd do the same for you.
PPS, I was using the example of "shoot until you overheat' to prove a point. Glad you took it out of proportion (see what I did there_ ). I'll clarify by explaining. I meant why would anyone continue to engage an enemy who now has extra health when they have lower heat thresholds and their heat gauge is almost at it's overheating point (for whatever reason)_ Personally, I would run away before my gauge got to that point in order to do a quick repair (assuming I'm facing an opponent of similar level to me), and if my opponent was smart, they'd do a quick repair as soon as I got out of range of them otherwise they'd risk an overheat (by chasing and shooting) and it would be an easy kill for me.

/sigh. Ok here we go.

Hitting and running, while it has its merits, the fact that everyone is able to repair to full health in a few seconds, makes it pretty pointless for the most part.
It is better to kill and send them back to spawn on a timer, or just shoot them from a distance so they relocate or duck into cover (This is not Hit and Run, think "longrange harrassment")

Obviously you have been playing against complete newbies if you are able to run away and repair so easily. Trust me when I say that if you tried that against myself and other moderately skilled players, you'd regret it.
Believe what you want though, you will find this out sooner or later.

FYI: Your guess was wrong, and I don't care if you believe me or not.
Also, C classes in turret mode are basically free kills for anyone who knows how to use cover.
They can't move much, you still can. Mobility = Life.
Are you dying to them because you just run at them holding the triggers down_


You weren't "using it as an example". What you did was say "This is how I think it is going to be".
There is a difference. By the way, if you are going to use a crappy get out clause such as "I did it to prove a point", make sure you actually do prove a point.
All you have done is make yourself look daft, because your "clarification" is a completely different "example". But whatever, lets carry on shall we_


Ok so just because someone has more HP you are gonna run from a fight_ You would have more HP as well y'know. Also if you manage your heat levels you can stay in a fight as long as you want, assuming you can dodge. So what if you are close to overheating_ Wait just a few seconds and you are good to go again for another burst.

You won't overheat when chasing unless you just go mental (Manage your frigging heat!). Remember you can't boost and shoot at the same time, so you'll be cooling down while chasing.

PS: You don't have to add in Postscripts. This is a forum; Just add another paragraph if you have more to say.

[SirMilagres]

hmmmm, this thread made me think....
A game mode with the triple health TC mentioned, no respawn and specially no repairing allowed.
I'd like to see this (or something similar to it)

[Beobachter]

In games like MA and Siege, maintaining a high K-A /D ratio is not that hard if you read the tide of the battle and not rushing head first. I am not an accomplished player, and at most battles when it's 1V1 I lose quite easily. Retreat (waiting for backup and repair) and buying time for allies to retreat are of essence. I believe the Health is fine as it is.

And given the mech's appearance. the low hp gives it a rather realistic touch. their armors don't look any tougher than real life tanks, and no tanks could survive more than three cannon hits unless you're driving it in Call of Duty.

Edited by Beobachter, November 10 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[RavenSol]

The point i was trying to make is this is a mech warfare game  it's not a  eccelerator battle suit game. It is not my fault  the dev team made mechs  it is their decision but they did it.  Then after deciding on mechs  they made a game  that has no mech feel at all.  They did make a really fun  battle suit  twitch shooter nothing wrong in that  but they need to be clear that is what they did and not try to convince me it's a mech game.  A mech is made to take alot of damage before blowing up  these don't take hardly any damage before going boom.  A battle suit  can't take much damage but would make you faster  and tougher then normal flack jacket.   Think of it like this  if you have the technical ability to make a mech you would have the smarts to make it armored to absorb alot of damage against the weapons used otherwise your waisting your time making it.But if it's a battle suit  all your doing is making a super soilder that can take alot more hits then normal.

[DarkPulse]

RavenSol, on November 11 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

The point i was trying to make is this is a mech warfare game  it's not a  eccelerator battle suit game. It is not my fault  the dev team made mechs  it is their decision but they did it.  Then after deciding on mechs  they made a game  that has no mech feel at all.  They did make a really fun  battle suit  twitch shooter nothing wrong in that  but they need to be clear that is what they did and not try to convince me it's a mech game.  A mech is made to take alot of damage before blowing up  these don't take hardly any damage before going boom.  A battle suit  can't take much damage but would make you faster  and tougher then normal flack jacket.   Think of it like this  if you have the technical ability to make a mech you would have the smarts to make it armored to absorb alot of damage against the weapons used otherwise your waisting your time making it.But if it's a battle suit  all your doing is making a super soilder that can take alot more hits then normal.

You have your design decisions, they have theirs. This is what they decided on.

That said, you realize that even the "weak" guns that they fire, like the Submachine cannon, would put head-sized holes into a human, right_

It's a relative damage scale.

Also, no you wouldn't make it to take a lot of damage. Engineers can develop a totally impervious-to-everything tank, but guess what_ It wouldn't be able to move under its own weight. They could make a car that takes no damage in a collision... but a big part of that would be because it couldn't exactly go anywhere.

Speed and durability are always traded off in any machine. Mechs are no exception. It's why the B-Class and C-Class are more durable... and much more slow compared to the A-Class.

So sure, maybe they'll eventually make a mech that has like 4000 armor. And then it'll move at 2-3 miles per hour.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 11 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[RavenSol]

DarkPulse, on November 11 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

RavenSol, on November 11 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

The point i was trying to make is this is a mech warfare game  it's not a  eccelerator battle suit game. It is not my fault  the dev team made mechs  it is their decision but they did it.  Then after deciding on mechs  they made a game  that has no mech feel at all.  They did make a really fun  battle suit  twitch shooter nothing wrong in that  but they need to be clear that is what they did and not try to convince me it's a mech game.  A mech is made to take alot of damage before blowing up  these don't take hardly any damage before going boom.  A battle suit  can't take much damage but would make you faster  and tougher then normal flack jacket.   Think of it like this  if you have the technical ability to make a mech you would have the smarts to make it armored to absorb alot of damage against the weapons used otherwise your waisting your time making it.But if it's a battle suit  all your doing is making a super soilder that can take alot more hits then normal.

You have your design decisions, they have theirs. This is what they decided on.

That said, you realize that even the "weak" guns that they fire, like the Submachine cannon, would put head-sized holes into a human, right_

It's a relative damage scale.

Also, no you wouldn't make it to take a lot of damage. Engineers can develop a totally impervious-to-everything tank, but guess what_ It wouldn't be able to move under its own weight. They could make a car that takes no damage in a collision... but a big part of that would be because it couldn't exactly go anywhere.

Speed and durability are always traded off in any machine. Mechs are no exception. It's why the B-Class and C-Class are more durable... and much more slow compared to the A-Class.

So sure, maybe they'll eventually make a mech that has like 4000 armor. And then it'll move at 2-3 miles per hour.

  Ok i can go buy your premise and use a real world example of what i am talking about.  Ok i'm a designer of tanks  for the US  i get tasked with making a new tank  do i make a tank that has paper armor and a good gun or do i make a tank like the one they did the m1 abrams  big nasty brut with a devastating gun that can take alot of damage  and can move as fast as or faster then most other tanks in the world.   I am just saying it doesn't have a mech feel to it  i don't care there big i don't care they say it's a mech  they just don't feel like a mech when you can die one on one in 2 seconds.

[Elix]

It sounds like you would prefer to play a game that isn't Hawken.

[RavenSol]

After playing this weekend  and  toping  the leaderboards a few times  and enjoying the game. I will totally stand buy my statement  this is NOT a mech game it is a  twitch shooter in a armored suit with a rocket on your butt.  The one thing mwo did do very well is portray mech warfare  and in a big way  they nailed it. They screwed up abunch of other stuff  but when pioleting that mech you feel like your in a mech. I have played  many of the old school fps games and this one feels just like all of them you just see a sorta mech infront of you. It is alot of fun  and i will continue to play it  abit  but it would become my go to game if it had more of a mech feeling to it (longer encounters that alow real strategy to play out) and less  quake arena.  And yes i know  you still use a strategy but it's based off the quakelike strats.

[DarkPulse]

RavenSol, on November 12 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Ok i can go buy your premise and use a real world example of what i am talking about.  Ok i'm a designer of tanks  for the US  i get tasked with making a new tank  do i make a tank that has paper armor and a good gun or do i make a tank like the one they did the m1 abrams  big nasty brut with a devastating gun that can take alot of damage  and can move as fast as or faster then most other tanks in the world.   I am just saying it doesn't have a mech feel to it  i don't care there big i don't care they say it's a mech  they just don't feel like a mech when you can die one on one in 2 seconds.

Neither. You make a tank that moves acceptably fast, has enough armor to take a hit or two (and is stronger up front), and as big of a cannon as is practical to put on it without adding too much weight. However, your example is moot - the Abrams' strength comes from the fact that it has a gun that is accurate at distances other tanks cannot shoot; in the first Gulf War the Soviet Tanks that Iraq had were effective only to about 2000 meters or so, while the Abrams could go in excess of 2500. It could hit its opponents, when its opponents could not. In this case, the accuracy distance - not the "big nasty brute" factor - is what gave it its reputation. (For what it's worth, about two dozen of those were destroyed in that war - 7 of them from friendly fire.)

It sounds more like what you expected is a mech simulator. That's not what Hawken is. Hawken isn't quite a twitch shooter, either (play CS if you want that) but it's definitely not sim-level deep.

However, it can still be a mech game without it being a full-on simulator.

PS: Calling it "Quake Arena" is so hilariously wrong it's not even funny. Fights end way quicker in Quake than they usually do in this game.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 12 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RavenSol, on November 12 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 11 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

RavenSol, on November 11 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

The point i was trying to make is this is a mech warfare game  it's not a  eccelerator battle suit game. It is not my fault  the dev team made mechs  it is their decision but they did it.  Then after deciding on mechs  they made a game  that has no mech feel at all.  They did make a really fun  battle suit  twitch shooter nothing wrong in that  but they need to be clear that is what they did and not try to convince me it's a mech game.  A mech is made to take alot of damage before blowing up  these don't take hardly any damage before going boom.  A battle suit  can't take much damage but would make you faster  and tougher then normal flack jacket.   Think of it like this  if you have the technical ability to make a mech you would have the smarts to make it armored to absorb alot of damage against the weapons used otherwise your waisting your time making it.But if it's a battle suit  all your doing is making a super soilder that can take alot more hits then normal.

You have your design decisions, they have theirs. This is what they decided on.

That said, you realize that even the "weak" guns that they fire, like the Submachine cannon, would put head-sized holes into a human, right_

It's a relative damage scale.

Also, no you wouldn't make it to take a lot of damage. Engineers can develop a totally impervious-to-everything tank, but guess what_ It wouldn't be able to move under its own weight. They could make a car that takes no damage in a collision... but a big part of that would be because it couldn't exactly go anywhere.

Speed and durability are always traded off in any machine. Mechs are no exception. It's why the B-Class and C-Class are more durable... and much more slow compared to the A-Class.

So sure, maybe they'll eventually make a mech that has like 4000 armor. And then it'll move at 2-3 miles per hour.

  Ok i can go buy your premise and use a real world example of what i am talking about.  Ok i'm a designer of tanks  for the US  i get tasked with making a new tank  do i make a tank that has paper armor and a good gun or do i make a tank like the one they did the m1 abrams  big nasty brut with a devastating gun that can take alot of damage  and can move as fast as or faster then most other tanks in the world.   I am just saying it doesn't have a mech feel to it  i don't care there big i don't care they say it's a mech  they just don't feel like a mech when you can die one on one in 2 seconds.

I'm really getting tired of people using the term "mech" as if it describes some very specific idea of what a mech should be.

"Mech" or "Mecha" (they are interchangeable) is a general term, describing a genre of piloted, semi-huminoid machines. "Mech" does not mean, "heavily armored, heavy damage, war machine." They don't even have to be large vehicles either. The line gets a bit blurry, but some sorts of exosuits and power armors could be considered to be "mechs."
"Mech" is about as specific a term as "robot" is. If I say something doesn't have a "robot" feel to it, that means nothing, because that could mean anything from androids disguised as humans, to a robotic assembly arm in a car factory.

This is a mech:
http://youtu.be/hU1rTET0n5c

This is a mech:
http://youtu.be/E_zgK6HQRfM

And this is also a mech:
http://youtu.be/tNxXq-1U8qU

Only one of those is even remotely like what you think "mech" means, yet they are all mechs.
This is the flaw in your argument. You want the game to have a more "mech" feel, but by the very virtue of having mechs, it has a "mech" feel, just not the one you want.

You need to start basing your argument around why you think faster-paced, agile mechs aren't what Hawken should be using.
Not that it doesn't have a "mech" feel because it doesn't fit your narrow personal definition of "mech."

[RavenSol]

your right but i'm not the one that said  this game is mechwarrior meets cod   that is on the games website  and is what they are using  to describe this game.  It is there fault not mine  they set the  premise of what mech  means.   I am just simply pointing out  as a beta tester   this game doesn't have that  feel to it  since the encounters are over very fast.  I also gave a simple fix of just increasing the health of the mech abit to make the fights abit longer.  No i don't want  to see  the  90 second long circle fest fights you get in mwo.  This games fast combat is fine  and alot of fun and does set it apart from mwo but doesn't seperate it from alot of other fps.  My whole point to this thread is just increase the length of time  it takes to kill just alittle bit doing that would seperate this  games combat from anyother game  add that to the rest of what this title has to offer and it will stand out as a truely uniq game experiance.

[DarkPulse]

RavenSol, on November 12 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

your right but i'm not the one that said  this game is mechwarrior meets cod   that is on the games website  and is what they are using  to describe this game.  It is there fault not mine  they set the  premise of what mech  means.   I am just simply pointing out  as a beta tester   this game doesn't have that  feel to it  since the encounters are over very fast.  I also gave a simple fix of just increasing the health of the mech abit to make the fights abit longer.  No i don't want  to see  the  90 second long circle fest fights you get in mwo.  This games fast combat is fine  and alot of fun and does set it apart from mwo but doesn't seperate it from alot of other fps.  My whole point to this thread is just increase the length of time  it takes to kill just alittle bit doing that would seperate this  games combat from anyother game  add that to the rest of what this title has to offer and it will stand out as a truely uniq game experiance.

Well, it is indeed on the official site (though it's "Mechwarrior meets Counter Strike") but I think most of the players and indeed even the devs would disagree with that distinction. Counter Strike is even faster than Quake Arena or COD. Furthermore, that's a quote some other website attributed - not something the devs themselves have said.

Second, the devs set their definition of mech. Yours doesn't agree with it. This isn't their problem, despite what you claim. If this game doesn't meet your definition of mech, then that's fine, but you can't call it "not a mech game" because of that. The devs say they're mechs, so they're mechs. As AJK put up above, the word mech is an extremely flexible term.

Third, increased health would just make combat drag on even longer, and the better players would probably die even less often than they do now (which is already pretty low; I can't remember the last game I went double-digits in deaths). It won't really make lesser players any better - it'll just mean their deaths drag out longer and good players become even harder to kill.

Fourth, combat is actually slower than "most" FPS as it is. 2-3 seconds are all you need for a kill in COD or CS. Here, pretty much the only one that will do something similar (perhaps a 5-7 second kill time for a full armor mech) is a Sharpshooter cracking an A-Class with Sabot + Slug simultaneously and following up with a few more Slug shots, or something like a couple of Vulcan players ganging on someone. Otherwise, the quickest you'll see most combat resolved is 8-15 seconds, and some fights can easily take 20 or 30 if both players are quite skilled.

Fifth and finally, while I don't want to discourage you from the idea, I'd have to say you're pretty much in the minority opinion here. If anything, most people feel the health on a mech is pretty spot-on, and a few weapons or abilities need to be tweaked. I've not heard very many cries of "Man, the A-Class needs an extra few hundred armor."

[Bureizumaru]

RavenSol, on November 09 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

atm you die so fast

I'm kinda new so I dunno if the health was tripled or not or if the repair ability was added to the game when you wrote this but... I die maybe 0-5 times in a round and survive for long periods of time. Although I guess it depends on how good you are at avoiding bullets and escaping enemies when you are outnumbered. But personally I think it takes a bit too long to die (Although I think it should stay the way it is since I usually escape with 5-50 hp...)

But hell if you want a more mech feel then how about if you shoot the legs enough then the mech will be slower. You could also destroy the jets on the mech. Maybe blow the arms off. That would decrease survivability by a lot but you seem to want to live longer so yeah... Also it doesn't seem like the cockpit view fits the way the mech looks. Kinda feels like I am in a different mech when I see my mech in the garage and the window is so different than that which I see in game. (You know, Infiltrator cockpit doesnt look like it fits the window of that mech... Its a small square window yet thats not what I see in game xD)

But oh well, just talking about the mech feel :/

[Elix]

Bureizumaru, on November 12 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Also it doesn't seem like the cockpit view fits the way the mech looks. Kinda feels like I am in a different mech when I see my mech in the garage and the window is so different than that which I see in game. (You know, Infiltrator cockpit doesnt look like it fits the window of that mech... Its a small square window yet thats not what I see in game xD)

Most mechs don't actually have a window on the front, and keep in mind that your mech is about 75 feet tall -- look around the maps for ruined, abandoned trucks and stuff, and compare the scale when your mech kicks one out of the way. It's very likely that the cockpit is deep within the mech and you are looking at monitors that are designed to simulate a cockpit window for familiarity to the pilot.

EVE Online does this; you, the player/pilot are sitting in a goo pod somewhere in your ship, and the game interface is literally your control interface. All of the sounds you hear (of guns and explosions in the vaccum of space!) are simulated by the computer to raise situational awareness in battle, and you're given an out-of-body view of your own ship and the space around it. All of it is a simulation of what's actually "happening", unlike playing, say, Mario, where what you see on screen is as "real" as it gets in the video game.