71 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

Having spent even more time in HAWKEN since alpha and beta 1, I just keep getting more and more convinced that mid air dodge should be implemented.

Currently jump-jetting will get you a couple things:
1.  You can get to the top of the AA turret in siege.
2.  You can get to the top of some buildings.
3.  It makes you the most fricking easy target to hit.

Considering getting to the top of buildings is pretty... pointless for the most part, and getting to the top of the AA turret is, while beneficial, easy enough for any class, that leaves us with one point worth mentioning:  #3

Adding mid air dodge would give jetting more viability in the game.  I always love it when people jet, thinking they're suddenly some terribly hard target to hit, then start firing down on you from above.  OOoooooo scary!  It's stupidly pointless.  Let's give jetting a useful purpose in the game other than getting on top of buildings, which is pretty pointless to begin with.

I already know some people will say it would make some classes "too OP with their maneuverability".  It really wont.  They'll be able to get to the top of those buildings even w/o mid air dodge.  And they'll be able to run away just as easy without MA dodge.  They already do.  And to think that they'll somehow suddenly be able to jet up high enough to clear a wall, then dodge over it, that's ridiculous.  You'll have them dead before they get high enough to dodge over it anyway.

All it will do is add a little more challenge to hitting targets in the air, thus giving the Z axis more use in HAWKEN.  As it stands now, you really don't need jets for anything.  Not even siege AA turret.  You can just dodge around beneath it and win just fine.

Lets give jetting more use.

[D20Face]

To be honest hitting even a dodging target isn't hard.

The big issue with being in midair is that you can't avoid long distance projectiles like tows or grenades that you'd normally be able to.

Dodging is mostly used to enforce a range limit on projectile weapons. Removing that range limit on anybody who decides to make gameplay even the slightest bit vertical seems odd.

EDIT I'm obviously for midair dodges.

Edited by D20Face, November 12 2012 - 04:42 AM.

[BlackCephie]

For one for thing, I disagree that jetting is useless, or that getting to the tops of builds is useless, especially on an infiltrator. You can easily confuse someone by jetting suddenly, when they expected the dodge, and make them miss their secondary shot, and then proceed to fuzzy bunny on them. In teams, jetting vies the advantage of a third direction to come from, while your zerks and infs flank the fuzzy bunny out of their whole team, thereby allowing you you fly in and hit targets from above.

I think that the fact that we even CAN jet, let alone how actual much we can considering we are piloting giant robots. The limited mobility while airborn is mitigated by the fact that you can still shut off and engage you boosters alternately, so you can change the speed of you decent. If you are airborn and are underfire, you can simply cut off your jets and plummet, then engage them again before landing so you can boost out faster. Coming from above and using height advantage actually makes enemies on the ground a really easy target for emp (and really any aoe weapon, which is like...a lot of them) as well, so its a viable way to initiate if you use that item.

Being using jets would be insanely too good if midair dodge were introduced, and I think would detract from the overall feeling of weight and gravity in the game. Being able to suddenly change direction would be not only obnoxiously Guilty-Gear-like, it wouldn't really have a disadvantage. The lack of air mobility works as a checks and balances in my experience.

[RedVan]

these giant hulking mechs can dodge on the ground.  There is no difference if they are in the air and they do it.  Infact, it makes more sense in the air, as they have less friction.  So saying their inability to dodge MA "fits the feel" doesn't even make sense logically.

And I'll be honest, while you may feel you have some great advantage jetting in splashing down, playing against me, you're the first to go due to how easy a target you are.

[The_Silencer]

RedVan, on November 12 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

1.  You can get to the top of the AA turret in siege.
2.  You can get to the top of some buildings.
3.  It makes you the most fricking easy target to hit.
...
Lets give jetting more use.

1.- I warned the devs on that weeks a go. - (Block slope ontop or make the base of the model taller).
2.- Known issue since alpha1. - (SharpShooter is the word..)
3.- Yes.
...
And yes.

[bacon_avenger]

RedVan, on November 12 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

these giant hulking mechs can dodge on the ground.  There is no difference if they are in the air and they do it.  Infact, it makes more sense in the air, as they have less friction.  So saying their inability to dodge MA "fits the feel" doesn't even make sense logically.

If you are going to try the 'logical' approach (such as it is for the subject at hand), I offer a counterpoint as to how it doesn't make sense for them to be able to dodge in the air.

We are piloting mechs, several tonne dump trucks with heavy weaponry strapped to them (as another forum member put it once).  There is a very finite limit to what the boosters can produce, hence the height limit based on the distance from the ground, and a very limited range of motion the nozzles can point (even if they are gimbled).

You have the following choices:

• Boost up and move in a given direction (very slowly)
  
• Use just enough boost to make the mech 'light on it's feet' and move a given direction much faster than normal (forward)
  
• Use just enough boost to make the mech 'light on it's feet' and quickly accelerate one direction or another (dodge)

Any one of these uses the same amount of power, but each applies different amounts of that power in different directions.

Obviously, I'm against the idea of an air dodge, it just strikes me as being full of cheese.

[D20Face]

bacon_avenger, on November 12 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Obviously, I'm against the idea of an air dodge, it just strikes me as being full of cheese.

But bacon and cheese go wonderfully together.

[DarkPulse]

It gives the A-Class way too much maneuverability and too many "outs" that the other classes would not get, due to using more fuel and having less speed for the same actions. A-Class has a faster dodge recharge, the least fuel during hovering, goes the furthest distance with their dodges, and so on.

In short, this would really only benefit the A-Class, and so I'm pretty against it. Not to mention how incredibly, incredibly silly it would look, and how much it could be used for crashing tactics and the like, which really have no ways to defend.

[D20Face]

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

In short, this would really only benefit the A-Class

I have to disagree.

Since you aren't dragging against the ground there's no reason for the dodge momentum to end. It'd give the heavy mechs a much larger mobility boost than it would give to the A classes.

[DarkPulse]

D20Face, on November 13 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

I have to disagree.

Since you aren't dragging against the ground there's no reason for the dodge momentum to end. It'd give the heavy mechs a much larger mobility boost than it would give to the A classes.

No, it doesn't. They all go the same distance per dodge (900 UU) but they have different dodge speeds per class:

• A-Class: 2300 UU
  
• B-Class: 2100 UU
  
• C-Class: 1900 UU

What this essentially means is that since the air momentum would not stop them, the A-Class (and the B-Class, for that matter) would both dodge further through the air than a C-Class ever can.

Let's say you're an A-Class, and a C-Class just about has you cornered. Normally, unless you're skilled, this means it's respawn time. However, if you got an air dash, this is no problem at all - you just run for the nearest jump pad, or, in a worst case scenario, hover up (you'll use less fuel - 1.6/sec vs. 1.75/sec), and then do your air dodge. The faster speed will propel you further than the C-Class can get, because you have a longer hangtime. When you do land, you'll be able to move 4/10ths of a second (0.55 vs. 0.95 sec) quicker than the C-Class can, and let's not forget, you have the faster boost forward speed, too (1800 UU vs. 1500 UU).

In short, there is no realistic way for the C-Class to catch up. Therefore, you get away from a bad tactical situation scot-free, and are able to heal up and return good as new, when without it, the C-Class would've had you dead to rights. This makes C-Class virtually worthless against an A-Class, and even a B-Class will have a tough time.

Therefore, again, I am opposed to this. If it happens, there needs to be some very serious drawbacks to make sure A-Classes can't just get away from any remotely bad situation, but I feel the better choice is to simply not put it in at all, as it forces A-Class pilots to be a lot more careful - as they should be when they're the lightest class.

[Elix]

If you are in the air, you are a greater target. This is how it should be.

If you aren't agile enough, you need to play a lighter class of mech or practice playing Hawken more.

[The_Silencer]

I don't agree on that.

[D20Face]

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Stuff

A classes can already go huge distances, the mobility gap from now to them getting aerial maneuvers would be minimal.

Allowing a C class to go longer distances by properly using areal dodges would give them far more wiggle room in catching prey(or escaping) when they have the high ground.

It's the first few seconds of mobility that matter the most. For an A class mech it'd basically be like being on the ground. For a C class mech they'd get that little extra boost that could make the difference.

EDIT: Light classes also suffer the least right now from being in the air out of any weight class. There's no realistic way for C classes to catch up to an A in just about any situation right now anyways.

Edited by D20Face, November 13 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[DarkPulse]

D20Face, on November 13 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Stuff

A classes can already go huge distances, the mobility gap from now to them getting aerial maneuvers would be minimal.

Allowing a C class to go longer distances by properly using areal dodges would give them far more wiggle room in catching prey(or escaping) when they have the high ground.

It's the first few seconds of mobility that matter the most. For an A class mech it'd basically be like being on the ground. For a C class mech they'd get that little extra boost that could make the difference.

EDIT: Light classes also suffer the least right now from being in the air out of any weight class. There's no realistic way for C classes to catch up to an A in just about any situation right now anyways.

The problem is they won't gain from this.

Again, A-Class has the highest sideways dodge speed. On ground, this is stopped because all classes have the same dodge distance (900 UU) but the difference in speed between an A-Class and a C-Class is 400 UU. Obviously, in mid-air, the only thing that's going to stop you is gravity eventually winning and making you hit the floor - and when they do, assuming a worst-case landing, the A-Class will be able to react 4/10ths of a second faster than the C-Class, due to the impact lockout.

Therefore, an A-Class will fly further from an air dodge by virtue of the fact their dodge is faster, and they will be able to zip off and gain more distance once they land before a B-Class or a C-Class can do the same.

Furthermore, the A-Class can thrust up faster for less fuel, while the C-Class has to use more fuel, more quickly, to go up the same height.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 13 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[DM30]

I don't think an air-dodge should be implemented. I agree that it would make the game feel too a la Japanese anime instead of the grungy, hulking machines of destruction sort of feel that the game seems to be going for.

As for these "physics" arguments, I'll add my two cents.

1) Given the weight of these mechs, a rapid change of direction mid-air from the boosters alone probably wouldn't be possible. They're using all their thruster power just to stay in the air, and inertia is not on their side. Short of some sort of high-powered, consumable rocket pack, it's not plausible.

2) The reason ground dodges are feasible is because the mechs could be pushing off with their legs as well as using their jets, giving them that extra force to overcome their weight for that brief, quick hop. In the air there's nothing to push against.

But this is a video game, so that sort of "real world" argument is pointless. Essentially, my opinion is that it wouldn't fit the esthetic of the game, so it shouldn't be done.Having the mechs jerk around like they have ADHD while grounded is enough of a stretch for me.

[Sunnyy]

RedVan, on November 12 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Having spent even more time in HAWKEN since alpha and beta 1, I just keep getting more and more convinced that mid air dodge should be implemented.

Currently jump-jetting will get you a couple things:
1.  You can get to the top of the AA turret in siege.
2.  You can get to the top of some buildings.
3.  It makes you the most fricking easy target to hit.

Considering getting to the top of buildings is pretty... pointless for the most part, and getting to the top of the AA turret is, while beneficial, easy enough for any class, that leaves us with one point worth mentioning:  #3

Adding mid air dodge would give jetting more viability in the game.  I always love it when people jet, thinking they're suddenly some terribly hard target to hit, then start firing down on you from above.  OOoooooo scary!  It's stupidly pointless.  Let's give jetting a useful purpose in the game other than getting on top of buildings, which is pretty pointless to begin with.

I already know some people will say it would make some classes "too OP with their maneuverability".  It really wont.  They'll be able to get to the top of those buildings even w/o mid air dodge.  And they'll be able to run away just as easy without MA dodge.  They already do.  And to think that they'll somehow suddenly be able to jet up high enough to clear a wall, then dodge over it, that's ridiculous.  You'll have them dead before they get high enough to dodge over it anyway.

All it will do is add a little more challenge to hitting targets in the air, thus giving the Z axis more use in HAWKEN.  As it stands now, you really don't need jets for anything.  Not even siege AA turret.  You can just dodge around beneath it and win just fine.

Lets give jetting more use.

I have to agree with you, RedVan. Simply jump jetting makes you the most "vulnerable" target. It's not even funny when you go off ground and like 50 thousand projectiles fly towards you and you can't dodge nor react to it, but to believe that your going down. Therefore, I'll just conclude that jump jetting will make yourself vulnerable and an easy target while you're still in midair. Can't dodge, can't pray, but you can stay and spray.

[DM30]

I forgot to add something in my last post that I had wanted to, and that's that while jetting does make you a target, if done right it's not a death sentence by any means. I've used it very effectively to pop up from behind cover and pick off a target after having first worn them down. Even without wearing them down first, if you're smart about it you can unload a secondary shot at an enemy without giving them time to do much return damage to you. Just don't be stupid enough to do it out in the open, and there's nothing wrong with it.

[BuffMyRadius]

Even when you first engage a target, it's fun to be sitting 60ft up in mid air as you round a corner. If you're close enough to them you won't even be in their field of view as you plummet on top of them with your grenade launcher and flack cannon blazing. I would know, this happens to me a bit too often Why do I feel the need to run at people when I'm playing the sharpshooter!

[kormyen]

The_Silencer, on November 12 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 12 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

2.  You can get to the top of some buildings.

2.- Known issue since alpha1. - (SharpShooter is the word..)

I hope this is not a bug. I love being able to climb on the buildings as sneak attacks/higher ground.

As a berzerker I being able to mid-air dodge epic! .
However I don't really feel like it fits the feel of the game.
I agree with below quote for reasoning if required.

DM30, on November 13 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

The reason ground dodges are feasible is because the mechs could be pushing off with their legs as well as using their jets, giving them that extra force to overcome their weight for that brief, quick hop. In the air there's nothing to push against.

Edited by kormyen, November 14 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[CupcakesRevenge]

Jetting is pretty useless right now, I agree. I do think that removing the height limit or at least removing the infinite height of several pieces of map geometry would allow all classes some more map-monkeying opportunities and thus the ability to better utilize the jets. (It would also make my day a thousand times over. You woudln't believe how frustrated I am when I find what appears to be a shortcut through the map geometry only to be hit with ALTITUDE LIMIT or with invisble walls above the shantyhouse's roof.)

I'm sort of for mid-air dodges but as it stands being in mid-air is a liability anyway. You move slower and being vertical doesn't really protect you from any explosives weapons fire, as the TOW can be detonated mid-air and stuff. Even if you add mid-air dodging it's still much much better to save the boost as an escape option.

Edited by CupcakesRevenge, November 14 2012 - 04:46 PM.