71 replies to this topic

[Deu]

I'm for it if they reduce the A-Class's armour by half.

[Ace4225]

[response to original post]

so.... you basically want the jets to work like they do in Armored Core 4... I guess I'm cool with that..

Although I find jetting up is useful when it's you and one other guy and you're having a hard time getting your TOWs to hit.

[The_Silencer]

I definitely think that there's much potential in air combat. We all know the cons at this stage. I'd suggest to pay attention on the pros and keep moving forward to make the game even better.

If the clumpsy and vulnerable factors of the current aur combat may be decrease then the better ->  More fun and coolness for we all!

[RedVan]

Here is a K.I.S.S. version of energy management:

If you can dodge on the ground, then jet up 10 feet, you will be using the same energy as you would if you jet up 10 feet, then dodge (the differences that you could come up with through physics equations are negligible in this game).

It's as simple as that.  I have no idea why people keep saying you'll be running out of energy if you switch around the order of jetting and dodging.


As for A class getting more benefit:  C class already doesn't stand a chance catching them if they want to run.  So, making it easier for A class to get away isn't changing gameplay much, if at all.  On the other hand, a C class jetting is the biggest, stupidest, easiest target in the game.  If you give a C class the ability to jet up, then dodge, you have just given him an additional evasion tactic against the much more agile A class.  Currently A class can run circles around a C class and kill them no problem.  C is a giant, lumbering brick that is almost impossible to miss.

Now, don't forget, if an A class wants to get away, they're burning their energy at the get go to get away, so all this worry about them being able to do crazy flips through the air and disappear into a poof of smoke are unfounded.  In most circumstances I've seen an A try to get away, they wouldn't even have the energy to jet up then dodge if they wanted to.  They're already burning their energy boosting on the ground to get away.

EDIT:  You need to look at this broader than just "how well an A class can escape".  There's more to it than that.

Edited by RedVan, November 15 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[DarkPulse]

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

As for A class getting more benefit:  C class already doesn't stand a chance catching them if they want to run.  So, making it easier for A class to get away isn't changing gameplay much, if at all.  On the other hand, a C class jetting is the biggest, stupidest, easiest target in the game.  If you give a C class the ability to jet up, then dodge, you have just given him an additional evasion tactic against the much more agile A class.  Currently A class can run circles around a C class and kill them no problem.  C is a giant, lumbering brick that is almost impossible to miss.

Now, don't forget, if an A class wants to get away, they're burning their energy at the get go to get away, so all this worry about them being able to do crazy flips through the air and disappear into a poof of smoke are unfounded.  In most circumstances I've seen an A try to get away, they wouldn't even have the energy to jet up then dodge if they wanted to.  They're already burning their energy boosting on the ground to get away.

EDIT:  You need to look at this broader than just "how well an A class can escape".  There's more to it than that.

C-Class doesn't get as much benefit of "gaining that tactic" as the A-Class does precisely because it's bigger and heavier, which is my whole point.

Some classes get more out of it than others. Therefore, some classes will be able to use that to get where other classes cannot, making it imbalanced. The A-Class could use this to scoot into his base, scot-free. The B-Class and C-Class don't have a hope in bunny hell of doing the same.

[RedVan]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

As for A class getting more benefit:  C class already doesn't stand a chance catching them if they want to run.  So, making it easier for A class to get away isn't changing gameplay much, if at all.  On the other hand, a C class jetting is the biggest, stupidest, easiest target in the game.  If you give a C class the ability to jet up, then dodge, you have just given him an additional evasion tactic against the much more agile A class.  Currently A class can run circles around a C class and kill them no problem.  C is a giant, lumbering brick that is almost impossible to miss.

Now, don't forget, if an A class wants to get away, they're burning their energy at the get go to get away, so all this worry about them being able to do crazy flips through the air and disappear into a poof of smoke are unfounded.  In most circumstances I've seen an A try to get away, they wouldn't even have the energy to jet up then dodge if they wanted to.  They're already burning their energy boosting on the ground to get away.

EDIT:  You need to look at this broader than just "how well an A class can escape".  There's more to it than that.

C-Class doesn't get as much benefit of "gaining that tactic" as the A-Class does precisely because it's bigger and heavier, which is my whole point.

Some classes get more out of it than others. Therefore, some classes will be able to use that to get where other classes cannot, making it imbalanced. The A-Class could use this to scoot into his base, scot-free. The B-Class and C-Class don't have a hope in bunny hell of doing the same.

A class already does that w/o MA dodge.  There would be no change if you added MA dodge.

The point of MA dodge is not to gtfo.
The point is to encourage people to get in the air more, and not have to fear it.  You can get up for a quick advantage shot, see someone shooting at you, and dodge out of the way, rather than being the worlds easiest target.  It will burn your energy just as much as dodging on the ground then jetting up.  You will not be able to get any farther.  You will only be throwing off their aim for a quick second, which may be enough to cause you to win.

You have a one track mind dark:  "How can i haz ezkape".

You're right:  It's not going to help B and C class escape any better.  And no, it's not going to help A class escape any better than they already can.  MA dodge is a combat maneuver.  Not an escape maneuver.

[D20Face]

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

You're right:  It's not going to help B and C class escape any better.  And no, it's not going to help A class escape any better than they already can.  MA dodge is a combat maneuver.  Not an escape maneuver.

It would just make escapes easier for those with height advantage, regardless of class. I still think that adding universal mobility would benefit the previously slower classes more though.

And not only escapes, but ambushes and tailing.

It'd make the whole vertical aspect of the game infinitely more interesting. Right now changing heights is suicide if anybody is around. Up or down, you're a target.

Adding aerial manuevers would make going up dangerous, and going down advantageous. In other words, risking yourself initially leads to payoff later on. Risk/Reward is a good thing.

[DarkPulse]

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

A class already does that w/o MA dodge.  There would be no change if you added MA dodge.

You mean except for the fact that the C-Class could boost after them if it's on the ground, whereas if an A-Class manages to use that to, say, skirt off the AA in Titan and land on that path back into the left of their base, that it's not an advantage_

There's a word for that, but it's impolite to use on these forums. So instead, I'll say "deer pellets."

I get your point that it'd be encouraging people to jump in the air, but a magic air dodge isn't going to do anything because you're still going to be a target when you're moving upward. You're also still completely ignoring that while a ground dash has a momentum limit (universal at a distance of 900 UU regardless of mech class), you will have no such limit in the air due to friction not stopping you, meaning that yes, you will go further - and even though on the ground the distance is the same for all mechs, the mechs have different speeds when they dodge, meaning that without friction to stop them, the lighter classes will have more hangtime and get more distance out of a dodge. Unless you are saying that your air dodge would function exactly as it would if it were on the ground - i.e; a straight 900 UU burst and no more. In which case, I'd be somewhat more okay with it.

This is my whole point here. Yes, the A-Classes can go faster on ground - they also use more fuel when they boost, too (1.8/1.6/1.4 per second). However, to dodge, all classes use the same amount of fuel, 2.25 units, and furthermore, the lighter classes use less fuel to hover up (1.6/1.675/1.75). Therefore, there is effectively a smaller penalty for an A-Class to hover up, and then air dodge, than there is for a C-Class to hover up and air dodge.

Let's say he hovers up for exactly two seconds, then air dodges.

• A-Class: 5.45 fuel used. Due to dodge speed, flies through the air at 2400 UU/sec until impacting ground.
  
• C-Class: 5.75 fuel used. Due to dodge speed, flies through the air at 1600 UU/sec until impacting ground.

On ground, this is balanced out by the fact that if it were, say, 2 seconds of boosting, it'd be something more like this:

• A-Class: 3.6 fuel used. Traveled 3600 UU (Forward boost speed = 1800).
  
• C-Class: 2.8 fuel used. Traveled 3000 UU (Forward boost speed = 1500).

The C-Class travels slower on ground, and uses less fuel, but in the end, it's not too far away from the A-Class, and the A-Class runs out of juice quicker, allowing the C-Class to reasonably catch up. 600 UU is less than the distance of a single dodge, so they're still in reasonable proximity.

If we're doing air-dodges, there's no more fuel use after the dodge - both will fly through the air, but if there's a two second hangtime, the A-Class will be able to get twice as far away from the C-Class, as if it were on ground - 4800 UU traveled versus 3200 UU. This places it at slightly more than the dodge distance. And it just grows exponentially worse the longer both are in the air. Three seconds_ Then we're looking at 2400 UU difference, yet the A-Class used less fuel to get there. The A-Class is long gone, and the C-Class would probably have to use most of his tank to even try to catch up.

So in short_ Yes, it's imbalanced. Too imbalanced. Unless air dodges take significantly more fuel to perform than regular dodges, or unless there's some other penalty, it is going to simply make A-Classes even more annoying to fight, and they'll get cornered even less than they are now.

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

The point of MA dodge is not to gtfo.
The point is to encourage people to get in the air more, and not have to fear it.  You can get up for a quick advantage shot, see someone shooting at you, and dodge out of the way, rather than being the worlds easiest target.  It will burn your energy just as much as dodging on the ground then jetting up.  You will not be able to get any farther.  You will only be throwing off their aim for a quick second, which may be enough to cause you to win.

The only way you will not be able to get any farther is if your air dodge moves you the exact same distance as a regular dodge - 900 UU and no more. I would presume, however, that an air dodge would have no friction to stop the mech, therefore allowing them to fly.

If this is not what you intend for it to do, please say so, because this is the main point of my argument against it.

[D20Face]

Mechs fall. Fast. You are only providing horizontal momentum, not upward.

Getting two seconds of hangtime after blowing a dodge worth of fuel will never, under any circumstances, happen unless they fall from an overhead like on alleys, titan, or andromeda. Even then they'd have to burn fuel midflight after the boost to keep themselves up leaving none for the ground. They'd also be forced in a single predictable direction for the entirety of that hangtime.

You would be able to get those two extra meters you needed to get behind cover, or dodge a single secondary attack.

Edited by D20Face, November 15 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Deu]

You must not watch many mech animes. Once you are falling in the air you are dead before you hit the ground. It should be very discouraged to use boosting like that along with anything else that tempts you to leave cover and put your mech in the enemy's crosshair. Being in the air is not a vantage point. The end.

[RudaForce]

So far I'm with Dark on this, but let's make this thread more interesting, and add in an additional argument, shall we_

The point of this extra dodge, is to get more people into the air, and make sure that they don't feel completely vulnerable doing it, correct_

Well, if they could hover up into the air and dodge, then why can't they just hover quicker_ They'd still be using the same amount of fuel (as long as the devs made it like that) and it would help speed up some of the slow, boring parts like hovering up for 1000 hours to get on top of a 10 metre building.

The only problem with this is that you're still open to TOWs and Hellfires galore, though not as much. A fix for that could be a sort of lockdown, where the mech (Yes, this is a stupid idea) curls up into a ball and falls straight down to the ground, negating most damage. He would then have to 'unfold' which would take a while, but it gets the job done, and straight down isn't a super unfair advantage, and the C classes would benefit from down while A's up (Meaning the C-mechs fall faster and the A-mechs hover quicker).

[RedVan]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

A class already does that w/o MA dodge.  There would be no change if you added MA dodge.

You mean except for the fact that the C-Class could boost after them if it's on the ground, whereas if an A-Class manages to use that to, say, skirt off the AA in Titan and land on that path back into the left of their base, that it's not an advantage_

They can do that already anyway.
Step 1:  Get to edge
Step 2:  Turn mech sideways
Step 3:  Dodge off AA.

Even w/o doing that they'll still get away from a C no problem.  Thus, your point is moot.  What you are worrying about (the ability for A to escape from C easily) is something they are already capable of.

Quote

I get your point that it'd be encouraging people to jump in the air, but a magic air dodge isn't going to do anything because you're still going to be a target when you're moving upward. You're also still completely ignoring that while a ground dash has a momentum limit (universal at a distance of 900 UU regardless of mech class), you will have no such limit in the air due to friction not stopping you, meaning that yes, you will go further - and even though on the ground the distance is the same for all mechs, the mechs have different speeds when they dodge, meaning that without friction to stop them, the lighter classes will have more hangtime and get more distance out of a dodge. Unless you are saying that your air dodge would function exactly as it would if it were on the ground - i.e; a straight 900 UU burst and no more. In which case, I'd be somewhat more okay with it.

1st:  There's nothing more magic about air dodging than dodging on the ground.

2nd:  Yes, I've always intended there to be a limit as to how far the dodge will take you while in the air.  Once you jet up and begin your dodge, you immediately begin to fall to the ground.  The time it takes for you to fall to the ground does not change dependent on horizontal velocity.  Once you hit the ground, guess what happens:  More friction.  So while technically you will go farther from a single burst of dodge in the air, compared to a single burst of dodge on the ground, the difference is so minimal for the heights we're talking, it's not even worth mentioning.  Keep it 900 UU, I don't care.  All I want is for mechs in the air to be slightly more of a challenge to hit.  I never mentioned a "limit" because I thought it obvious that what goes up, must come down.

Quote

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

The point of MA dodge is not to gtfo.
The point is to encourage people to get in the air more, and not have to fear it.  You can get up for a quick advantage shot, see someone shooting at you, and dodge out of the way, rather than being the worlds easiest target.  It will burn your energy just as much as dodging on the ground then jetting up.  You will not be able to get any farther.  You will only be throwing off their aim for a quick second, which may be enough to cause you to win.

The only way you will not be able to get any farther is if your air dodge moves you the exact same distance as a regular dodge - 900 UU and no more. I would presume, however, that an air dodge would have no friction to stop the mech, therefore allowing them to fly.

If this is not what you intend for it to do, please say so, because this is the main point of my argument against it.

Considering dodge is a burst of speed in a particular direction, and not a continual thrust, nothing will be flying.  This is not how flight works.  Regardless of 900 UU limits or lack of friction.

Due to the energy constraints, the distance dodged would be limited by altitude.  If you only have the energy to get, say, 10' in the air, and still have enough to dodge, you're going to hit the ground pretty quick and then be back under the control of ground friction again, thus stopping the dodge.  This is what stops the mech.

If you dodge off the side of the top of titan, all the way to the bottom, then yes, you'll get more horizontal distance, but not by much, because dodge is a burst, not a continual thrust.  Think of it this way:  If you throw a rock from ground level, and it goes 30 feet, how much further do you think it will go if you throw it from 10 feet in the air, using the same amount of force_  Yes, it will go farther, but, in our case of giant mechs, the difference is going to be minimal.  If you wish to limit it to one air dodge per time in the air to prevent people from changing direction multiple times while falling, I have no problems with that.  Only dumb people try to escape by jumping down to the bottom of titan anyway lol.

In short:
Limit air dodge to 900 UU for all I care, the difference is negligible anyway.
Only allow one dodge per "flight" time

Edited by RedVan, November 16 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Beemann]

The way I see it, maps just need to reward the risk of vertical jetting better
There needs to be more areas in which the high ground is most conveniently reachable through vertical movement, and bring more of a reward to the risk-reward of flight
It doesn't need to be an in-combat tactic

[DM30]

Beemann, on November 17 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

The way I see it, maps just need to reward the risk of vertical jetting better
There needs to be more areas in which the high ground is most conveniently reachable through vertical movement, and bring more of a reward to the risk-reward of flight
It doesn't need to be an in-combat tactic

This.

[RedVan]

DM30, on November 17 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Beemann, on November 17 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

The way I see it, maps just need to reward the risk of vertical jetting better
There needs to be more areas in which the high ground is most conveniently reachable through vertical movement, and bring more of a reward to the risk-reward of flight
It doesn't need to be an in-combat tactic

This.

Well, nothing, needs to be anything.  They didn't need to make hawken.  It's not about necessity, its about fun.

edit: i take that back, the game does need something.  It needs to be fun.  If you don't think air dodge is fun, thats one thing, but dont say that air dodge isn't needed as an in-combat tactic.

Edited by RedVan, November 17 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 17 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well, nothing, needs to be anything.  They didn't need to make hawken.  It's not about necessity, its about fun.

edit: i take that back, the game does need something.  It needs to be fun.  If you don't think air dodge is fun, thats one thing, but dont say that air dodge isn't needed as an in-combat tactic.

Would you quit Hawken if it was announced that they would never, ever, ever even consider adding air dodge_

[QuanZen]

Air Dodge_... Must be a hardcore Armored Core player trying to relive the glory days through another game.

[SmaCkexe]

I read your post ... and all I got out of it was that you need to learn when to fly and when not to fly.  Flying in combat is generally a bad idea.  You become a sitting duck ... Adding a dodge in air is counter to the flying mechanics.  If you have noticed ...flying is slow and laborious... so why would you add a dashing movement to something that is meant to be slow_

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 17 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well, nothing, needs to be anything.  They didn't need to make hawken.  It's not about necessity, its about fun.

edit: i take that back, the game does need something.  It needs to be fun.  If you don't think air dodge is fun, thats one thing, but dont say that air dodge isn't needed as an in-combat tactic.

Would you quit Hawken if it was announced that they would never, ever, ever even consider adding air dodge_

No.  I would just continue getting easy kills on morons that jet up.  Would you quit if they added it_

QuanZen, on November 17 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Air Dodge_... Must be a hardcore Armored Core player trying to relive the glory days through another game.

Never played Armored Core.  My interest in adding air dodge is strictly based on HAWKEN gameplay.

SmaCkexe, on November 17 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

I read your post ... and all I got out of it was that you need to learn when to fly and when not to fly.  Flying in combat is generally a bad idea.  You become a sitting duck ... Adding a dodge in air is counter to the flying mechanics.  If you have noticed ...flying is slow and laborious... so why would you add a dashing movement to something that is meant to be slow_

Actually, I know perfectly well when to fly and not to fly.  In short, the easiest answer is "never fly" unless you need to get on top of a building.  How often do you need to be on a building_  Hardly ever, I've yet to find a situation where I cant do on the ground what I can do on a building.

That is why I'm encouraging an air dodge, to make flying a more integral part of the game.  As it stands now, if you jet up while in combat, you're the first to die, unless you're playing against people that have never played before.

Also:  Why should jetting be "slow and laborious" when dodge on the ground is anything but_  Think about it, on the ground you have air drag and ground friction.  In the air you only have drag.  Logically it would make more sense for anything in the air to be less "slow and laborious" than anything on the ground.  Reduce overall friction, increase overall speed.

Edited by RedVan, November 18 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 18 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 17 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well, nothing, needs to be anything.  They didn't need to make hawken.  It's not about necessity, its about fun.

edit: i take that back, the game does need something.  It needs to be fun.  If you don't think air dodge is fun, thats one thing, but dont say that air dodge isn't needed as an in-combat tactic.

Would you quit Hawken if it was announced that they would never, ever, ever even consider adding air dodge_

No.

Then by your own admittance the game doesn't need the mechanic, that Beemann/DM30 are justified in saying so and therefor you are just arguing silly semantics for no real reason.