Mid air dodge
#61
Posted November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM
Problem: Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.
Solution: Add ability to dodge while in the air.
Currently jets serve only a couple purposes:
Get on top of buildings
Get an angle for shots
Jetting is not advisable to use while in combat, due to the slow nature of jetting. You become the easiest target in the world.
How can we change the movement mechanics to incorporate jetting into combat more_
Allow air dodge.
What would this air dodge look like_
1. Energy use would be the same as ground dodge, if you jet too high and run out of energy, you won't be dodging.
2. You would only be capable of one air dodge per "hang time". For example, if you jet over the edge of a bridge, you cant dodge twice on your way down.
3. Mech would still be subject to dodge cooldown (which would initiate immediately as opposed to upon landing), as well as the split second pause upon landing.
4. Distance would be limited to that of ground dodge
Critics say:
A. Not realistic.
a. It's a video game set long in the future. Realism is defined by what the devs make it to be. Yes, it "appears to be weighty" based on movement in the game, however, the simple fact that they can dodge on the ground (air+ground friction), means that they would be fully capable of dodging in the air (only air friction).
B. It would become Armored Core.
b. Based on the limitations to this air dodge, you need not fear it being even remotely close to AC. The only thing that would be similar is the idea of dodging in the air. This air dodge would be even more restrictive than Unreal Tournament, which has less dodging than AC imo.
C. The mech would go splat upon landing.
c. If you can dodge over the edge of a bridge in the current mechanics, and you do not go splat upon landing, how will it be any different if you air dodge, which would naturally be a lesser altitude than a bridge_
D. The devs would need to change physics and animations.
d. As I said in point C, the physics and animations are already there. Dodging over the edge of a bridge would be no way different than jetting up and then dodging. You are essentially "creating your own bridge" when you jet up.
E. It will give class A mechs an advantage because they'll be able to escape easier.
e. Due to the limitations on the dodge, they won't be going any further than they already are able to go. In fact, they will go less far. It takes them more energy to jet up than it does for them to jet horizontally, thus, if they burn energy jetting up simply to use an air dodge, they will find themselves landing with little to no energy.
D. It will make the game too hard for noobs to get good.
d. I am a firm believer in having a large skill differential. However, I do know that you cannot alienate the noobs, or the community will die, leaving a few good players to quickly get bored with each other. Will an air dodge really increase the skill differential that much_ Considering dodge is already in the game, learning to air dodge will be no harder than learning to dodge on the ground. You simply jet into the air first. Due to the limitations on the dodge, you will not have "pro" players zipping circles around noob players that don't know up from down yet. I find it extremely hard to believe that this would increase the skill differential in any substantial way.
I may be missing some things that were brought up, feel free to bring it up again and I will add it to the list. And by all means, feel free to counter my points.
By adding air dodge, you would be increasing the usefulness of the vertical aspect of the game by reducing the punishment of jetting. With said mechanics of air dodge, it would still have a significant risk/reward factor to be considered when using it, but it would be a step in the right direction towards incorporating the Z aspect of the game more.
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#62
Posted November 20 2012 - 10:40 AM
RedVan, on November 12 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:
You don't lose that much friction. Your would have to go to a really high altitude, (Higher than planes because friction is what helps them stay in the air) to lose a fair amount. Plus I think the punishment for jetting is fair.
Edited by Cyclonus, November 20 2012 - 10:42 AM.
#63
Posted November 20 2012 - 10:50 AM
Cyclonus, on November 20 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:
RedVan, on November 12 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:
You don't lose that much friction. Your would have to go to a really high altitude, (Higher than planes because friction is what helps them stay in the air) to lose a fair amount. Plus I think the punishment for jetting is fair.
You're completely missing the point lol
People like to think that it would be unrealistic for a mech to be able to dodge in the air, and yet they have no problem with the fact that they can dodge on the ground. If the mech has the energy to overcome ground+air friction, then it will obviously have the energy to overcome air friction alone. How much the friction difference is is irrelevant.
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#65
Posted November 20 2012 - 11:10 AM
Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:
I'm still waiting for you to counter my arguments. I'm assuming you cannot due to your lack of attempts. You're only proving me right. I even laid it out all nice for you. You can go through one by one and say whether you agree or disagree, and give me reasons. But, it appears the extent of your disagreement with air dodge has been defeated.
Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 11:11 AM.
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#66
Posted November 20 2012 - 11:13 AM
But don't let that get you down. Here's a song to make you feel better.
#67
Posted November 20 2012 - 11:15 AM
That's not how its done.
oh well, i'm going to copy my last wot to the CBE3 forums so the new testers can have some input, since obviously you are out of counters.
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#68
Posted November 20 2012 - 11:34 AM
Well, the other half of me would say this:
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
This isn't a problem for me and many other fairly skilled players.
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
A. Not realistic.
Yes it is unrealistic [without adding a second set of jets to the mech]
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
Considering Armored Core has the exact same set of jet-based abilities, it certainly stands to reason it would begin to feel like Armored Core.
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
d. As I said in point C, the physics and animations are already there. Dodging over the edge of a bridge would be no way different than jetting up and then dodging. You are essentially "creating your own bridge" when you jet up.
You clearly don't understand how 3D models work, nor how games are programmed. If you just "borrowed" the ground-dodge animation and used it in an air-dodge, the air-dodge would look silly/unrealistic, and would likely not respond to physics correctly.
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
e. Due to the limitations on the dodge, they won't be going any further than they already are able to go. In fact, they will go less far.
Facts are facts. The dodge distances are the same for all classes, but the Class-A can use dodge more often. Hence, dodging is more effective for Class-A mechs. we're not talking about jumping/boosting, because your proposal is dealing with a dodge move.
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
d. I am a firm believer in having a large skill differential. However, I do know that you cannot alienate the noobs, or the community will die, leaving a few good players to quickly get bored with each other.
Let me stop you there; you already contradicted yourself.
-the larger the learning curve, the harder it is for noobs to adjust.
-by widening the curve of a game that already has a sharp curve, you will work to alienate new players.
-Congratulations! You've killed the community!
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
You obviously missed the point of jetting. It's supposed to punish you. Jetting is for getting to certain parts of the terrain, not for mid-air maneuvering on a battlefield. Still, some players can make use of the current jet system to jump over opponents and attack them from behind.
Final point: This whole thread just sounds like another n00b-ish complaint from someone who doesn't like the play style of the game and wants to change its dynamics to fit their play style. That's the wrong way to go about suggesting new features.
The right way is figuring out a way to shorten the learning curve; to make the game more competitive for everyone without making anything OP or cheap.
Edited by Ace4225, November 20 2012 - 11:58 AM.
#69
Posted November 20 2012 - 12:21 PM
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#70
Posted November 20 2012 - 01:40 PM
RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:
Funny typos aside, why not just let people transfer momentum into flight_ That way if you side-dash and then fly, you fly at side-dash speed
If you hop off of a jump pad and then fly, you don't suddenly slow to a crawl for no reason
BAM problem solved amiright_
Edited by Beemann, November 20 2012 - 01:41 PM.
#71
Posted November 20 2012 - 02:15 PM
Beemann, on November 20 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:
If you hop off of a jump pad and then fly, you don't suddenly slow to a crawl for no reason
BAM problem solved amiright_
(I don't mean to necro threads, I'm just almost always running behind. My apologies)
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#72
Posted November 20 2012 - 02:53 PM
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