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A look at the weapons


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#1 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 02:00 PM

Overall the guns are satisfying to use, but when Kiwi looks at the list and thinks about it, he feels that in some ways the arsenal feels uninspired. Please keep all comments and rotten vegetables until the end of the post.

The Interesting:
Hellfire rockets
SA Hawkins
HEAT Cannon
Repeater

The Ok:
TOW Missile
Grenade Launcher

The uninspired:
SMC
AR
Vulcan
Flak Cannon
Sabot Rifle
The Rifle that isn't the sabot

What's Kiwi getting at_ Looking at it, half of the guns are pretty standard FPS fare. The AR, SMC, and Vulcan are your run of the mill automatic weapons, the Flak is your shotgun, the Sabot is your sniper rifle, and the other rifle is like a bolt action rifle (the only difference here is that there's no pretty bolt animation).

The TOW is a rocket launcher and the grenade launcher are better, not really groundbreaking in implementation, but they don't have the standard feel that the above mentioned weapons do. (Though Kiwi has a bone to pick with the TOW that he'll get to later)

The interesting weapons, however, are ones that Kiwi got more play time with, the Hellfire Rockets, the Hawkins (which Kiwi did get enough time with), the EOC Repeater, and the HEAT. Part of why Kiwi thinks they've resonated so strongly with Kiwi is that they don't feel like infantry weapons upscaled for walking tanks. They feel like something that was made to be on a walking mech from the get-go. Charging mechanics (like with the HEAT) are always an interesting way to make a gun stand out more, but there's more to it then that. Using the SA Hawkins as an example, it looks and feels like a heavy weapon which makes it stand out more then the rather ho-hum Assault Rifle, even if the Hawkins also has a real world equivalent (autocannons). Hellfires are fun  "FIRE ALL THE MISSILES" affair, the EOC is a thing that exist (make no mistake, Kiwi is happy it's in the game), and the HEAT Cannon is a chargeable bundle of joy, blasty joy.

Don't misunderstand what Kiwi is saying, the standard automatics, shotguns, and rifles are not bad weapons by any means, but we've seen so many, that it's hard, at least for Kiwi, to get all that excited about them. Those weapons are standard for a reason, and they're a good thing to have (not to mention they're gonna be the most used). You have a workable arsenal with just them, but Kiwi thinks it's the HEATs and the Hawkins, and the Hellfires that will stick out in people's minds, and it certainly will stick with Kiwi.

You're gonna need a more varied arsenal, if for no other reason, then that repetition is already rearing it's ugly head. Out of the 6 chassis available, 3 of them have the TOW as a secondary weapon. The Assault and Berserker have identical weapon loadouts. There is very little reason to use both. Statistical variations are not a good enough motivation to drive sales, they're gonna need hooks and interesting bits (which the Hawken team has proven they can provide on the audio/visual side) to them to drive sales, this applies to both chassis and weapons.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 15 2012 - 02:01 PM.

Beep beep, Kiwi's a Chaffeemancer.

#2 KejiGoto

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Posted November 15 2012 - 02:11 PM

I can see what you mean and I think the mechs are being set up so each of them comes with one of the stand out weapons while being supported by a standard weapon which can be swapped out with another standard weapon. I think as we get into the Open Beta we're going to see some more weapons, chassis, and what have you pop up for use instead of the scaled down slow roll out we've seen in the features department.

Part of what makes the mechs stand out isn't just their arsenal but the abilities each pack. Infiltrators have cloak, Rocketeers have turret mode, and so on. I think these abilities really help each mech stand out from the others because these types of things promote individual play style over just giving you a standard load out.

Yes some mechs sport very similar load outs and that is slightly annoying when dealing with a limited number of mechs but when you start looking at abilities and how these mechs can be tweaked you start to see some serious differences. I can't remember what the model was that could rapidly displace heat generated from weapons but that promotes a completely different play style from the Infiltrator's cloaking ability.

Also aren't these mechs (at least in Hawken Lore) used against humans as well_ That might explain why they have rather standard weapons, no sense in blasting a person with a weapon designed to take down a mech when a slightly scaled up AR will do the trick,

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#3 3Jane

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Posted November 15 2012 - 02:12 PM

Yeah there will be more chassis weapon variations for sure. A fourth Chassis down the line would be neat too. (:

#4 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 02:35 PM

View PostKejiGoto, on November 15 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I can see what you mean and I think the mechs are being set up so each of them comes with one of the stand out weapons while being supported by a standard weapon which can be swapped out with another standard weapon. I think as we get into the Open Beta we're going to see some more weapons, chassis, and what have you pop up for use instead of the scaled down slow roll out we've seen in the features department.

Kiwi is well aware that we're gonna be getting more of everything as we move forward. Kiwi is worried however, that we'll get something like the state of affairs in Tribes: Ascend. Every class in that game, bar one, has an automatic weapon. For the most part, you can exchange one automatic with another without any noticeable difference (the fact that those automatics were the best weapon isn't that important for this discussion)

View PostKejiGoto, on November 15 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Part of what makes the mechs stand out isn't just their arsenal but the abilities each pack. Infiltrators have cloak, Rocketeers have turret mode, and so on. I think these abilities really help each mech stand out from the others because these types of things promote individual play style over just giving you a standard load out.

Yes some mechs sport very similar load outs and that is slightly annoying when dealing with a limited number of mechs but when you start looking at abilities and how these mechs can be tweaked you start to see some serious differences. I can't remember what the model was that could rapidly displace heat generated from weapons but that promotes a completely different play style from the Infiltrator's cloaking ability.

While true to some extent, half the abilities aren't very exciting. Assault has the ignore heat power and the infiltrator can turn invisible, that's spiffy. The berserker and Sharpie get a rather dull "do some extra damage" power. Meanwhile we get the nigh-useless fortify abilities of the C-Class. Abilities can, and will, differentiate mechs; but as of this beta, the current state of affairs isn't exactly exciting.

As for the tweaking, Kiwi thinks you're overestimating the effect optimizations can have in that regard. It'll be more like "instead of going the base 30% faster then the assault, Mr. Berserker goes  36% faster!" You can take it in other directions, but it's still not gonna have a drastic effect on play style. It's still faster assault with less health. The optimizations point is kind of irrelevant since, currently, the trees are the same for every machine.

View PostKejiGoto, on November 15 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Also aren't these mechs (at least in Hawken Lore) used against humans as well_ That might explain why they have rather standard weapons, no sense in blasting a person with a weapon designed to take down a mech when a slightly scaled up AR will do the trick,

Kiwi has no idea about Hawken's lore, especially in that regard, but just because a weapon can be used on men, doesn't mean it has to be like an upscaled infantry weapon. Kiwi directs you to the M16 MGMC, which was designed as an Anti-Air gun, but could certainly mow down men with ease. This becomes even less of an issue if man on mech fights are rare. It's cheaper to just shoot'em with a HEAT cannon then to have a dedicated anti-infantry weapon.

But regardless, as Kiwi's said, the upscaled gun isn't necessarily bad, but he'd like more guns that feel like mech weapons rather then man guns for mechs.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 15 2012 - 02:36 PM.

Beep beep, Kiwi's a Chaffeemancer.

#5 DarkPulse

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Posted November 15 2012 - 03:42 PM

SA Hawkins_ Interesting_

Kiwi drank the Kool-Aid, didn't he_
Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#6 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 15 2012 - 03:49 PM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

SA Hawkins_ Interesting_

Kiwi drank the Kool-Aid, didn't he_
This pineapple believe the Kiwi is right in the SA being interesting.
Mechanically it may not be the best weapon, but I do love the sound and look of it.
It's like someone came up with the weapon via this thought process, "Hey, you know what would be cool_ IF WE MADE TANKS CANNONS RAPID FIRE!"

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#7 Beemann

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Posted November 15 2012 - 03:57 PM

TBH while the GL isn't very interesting aesthetically it's one of my favourite weapons mechanically
I don't think I'd enjoy this game half as much without it, just given the versatility of the gun

I agree when it comes to pretty much everything else though
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Cloakin' and Smokin'

#8 Phaaze

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Posted November 15 2012 - 04:10 PM

http://hawkenwiki.net/wiki/Weapons

#9 Deu

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Posted November 15 2012 - 04:38 PM

I'm a big fan of the CBE2 system. I hate the grenade launcher because I don't have it.

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#10 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostBeemann, on November 15 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

TBH while the GL isn't very interesting aesthetically it's one of my favourite weapons mechanically
I don't think I'd enjoy this game half as much without it, just given the versatility of the gun

Aesthetically, Kiwi agrees, the GL isn't very exciting, neither is the TOW. Mechanically they are both pretty fun (especially the GL).

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

This pineapple believe the Kiwi is right in the SA being interesting.
Mechanically it may not be the best weapon, but I do love the sound and look of it.
It's like someone came up with the weapon via this thought process, "Hey, you know what would be cool_ IF WE MADE TANKS CANNONS RAPID FIRE!"

This is exactly what Kiwi's getting at, in regards to the Hawkins. It's a passable weapon, mechanically. It can get the job done, but there are others that surpass it in many regards. It is still, however, an enjoyable weapon to use because of the look and sounds of the thing. Autocannons are a very rarely utilized class of weapons in FPSes. Since in this game, the players are walking vehicles they can afford to play around with heavy weapons that are usually reserved for aircraft and tanks without entering the realm of silliness. They should look to weapons like the Hawkins in regards of sound and visual design.

View PostPhaaze, on November 15 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:


Actual weapon stats aren't terribly relevant to the point Kiwi's getting at.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 15 2012 - 04:42 PM.

Beep beep, Kiwi's a Chaffeemancer.

#11 Roundlay

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Posted November 15 2012 - 04:55 PM

Who's Kiwi_

#12 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 04:57 PM

Kiwi has no idea.
Beep beep, Kiwi's a Chaffeemancer.

#13 Timber_Wolf

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:07 PM

The hawkins is definitely one of the coolest weapons in the game, aesthetically.  Autocannons are beautiful and having two of them is more than twice the fun!
I agree with this post 100%!  I used the rocketeer for most of the beta solely for the hellfire, HEAT cannon, and EOC repeater.  

Off topic:  I don't think I ever got a response as to what you cast if you're a chaffeemancer, if it's astronauts, light tanks, or counties in Colorado.
Chicks dig giant robots.

#14 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:10 PM

View PostTimber_Wolf, on November 15 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Off topic:  I don't think I ever got a response as to what you cast if you're a chaffeemancer, if it's astronauts, light tanks, or counties in Colorado.
Obviously the answer is yes.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#15 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:14 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

View PostTimber_Wolf, on November 15 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Off topic:  I don't think I ever got a response as to what you cast if you're a chaffeemancer, if it's astronauts, light tanks, or counties in Colorado.
Obviously the answer is yes.

Kiwi had a relevant image, but he thinks he will just roll with this answer instead.
Beep beep, Kiwi's a Chaffeemancer.

#16 Timber_Wolf

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:19 PM

Well fuzzy bunnies.  I'll live the rest of my life in confusion and wonderment.
Chicks dig giant robots.

#17 DarkPulse

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:25 PM

Kiwi is TheChaffeemancer. Kiwi refers to himself in third person because apparently someone else has the name Kiwi and Kiwi cannot get over the loss of his nickname, so to remind everyone who he is, Kiwi refers to himself in third person.

DarkPulse wishes Kiwi would break out of this habit.
Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#18 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:27 PM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Kiwi is TheChaffeemancer. Kiwi refers to himself in third person because apparently someone else has the name Kiwi and Kiwi cannot get over the loss of his nickname, so to remind everyone who he is, Kiwi refers to himself in third person.

A swing and a miss! Kiwi's been doing this before Hawken was even a thought.
Beep beep, Kiwi's a Chaffeemancer.

#19 DarkPulse

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Posted November 15 2012 - 05:54 PM

Yes, well, Kiwi reminds me of a certain other person who I know.

Posted Image

Do you know what ended up to Alice_

She died.
Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#20 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 15 2012 - 06:03 PM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Yes, well, Kiwi reminds me of a certain other person who I know.

Posted Image

Do you know what ended up to Alice_

She died.
ur fase dyed

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'





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