56 replies to this topic

[Necro]

Wow, there are a lot of people who have there views set in stone on this. I for one find it useless to fly in combat, anyone who flies boost under and behind them and own them.

Does it have to be a Boost like on the ground_ No!

It could be a simple rotation of the jets in the direction you want to go allowing you to move sideways at an increased speed but loss of altitude.

How is it hard to believe that these mechs can't use their jets to fly sideways, especially when using an increased amount of fuel to give them ample propulsion_

I don't see why people are bringing up all these realism things when it's a game and you don't ever run out of ammo and you can shoot your teammates because___!!!

However I don't see it changing too much in the game, even if you sideways boost or forwards boost or 180 turn in the air your still sitting in the damn air and your gonna die!!!

Edited by Necro, November 20 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[gunhe4d]

Oh my god, the logic and physics don't matter.  Argue it from a gameplay standpoint because that's what matters.  From a gameplay standpoint, air dashes should not be added because, as stated before, vertical jumps come with a tactical trade off.  Jumps are intended for positioning, i.e. gaining higher ground, and also avoiding splash types of damage, explosives, etc.  The trade off for this is maneuverability.  This game rewards smart play as much as it rewards twitch play.

[RedVan]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Hovercraft essentially generate downforce similar to a helocopter, but only enough to elevate the vehicle enough to reduce ground friction.

As for ground effect, it is strictly based on wings and how close they are to the ground

Don't you just love how this guy just seems to know everything about everything... including an idea that hasn't even been tried yet_

Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch...

Dude, I'm a pilot in real life.  So yes, I do know about how ground effect works tyvm.

Dullahan, on November 20 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I gotta say I'm generally not in favor of an air dodge.  

The only exception would be if once you use it, your thrusters cut out until you hit the ground. So you jet off in one direction or the other, but immediately start falling and cant use space to hover or shift+a/d to dodge again until your big ole mech feet touch the ground.

Might make you think more strategically about when is best to use it, and it would help balance it so it's not too powerful an addition.

I would fully support that.  In my mind as I've played through how it would work, I think I kinda expected it to work like that anyway, but I guess I never really mentioned it lol.

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

but you're not using "side thrusters." You're using the same thrusters you use to sustain your jump height.

You'd have to fall anyway before turning them to dodge. Ultimately, I don't see the point, unless they completely redesign the mechs into something more AC-like... which the AC resemblance was mentioned a cagillion times in the last thread this guy made about this topic [even though he fails to see it]

Just face it, RedVan. It's not going to happen.

You use the same thrusters for a ground dodge.  So you're basically telling me that once airborne, these thrusters are unable to create a movement that they can do on the ground_  Is there something magic about being airborne that I don't know about_

I did already mention that, if you air dodge, you would cut out your vertical thrust, thus start dropping to the ground...

gunhe4d, on November 20 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Oh my god, the logic and physics don't matter.  Argue it from a gameplay standpoint because that's what matters.  From a gameplay standpoint, air dashes should not be added because, as stated before, vertical jumps come with a tactical trade off.  Jumps are intended for positioning, i.e. gaining higher ground, and also avoiding splash types of damage, explosives, etc.  The trade off for this is maneuverability.  This game rewards smart play as much as it rewards twitch play.

I agree with you, bringing realism into games like this is the stupidest thing ever.  But, people insist on doing so, and I'm willing to counter their "realistic" arguments lol.

As for the trade off, if you chose to air dodge you are:
Only able to do it once per "hang time"
Unable to use vertical thrust again until landing
Subject to the same split second pause upon landing (this would be an easy value to adjust to work balance issues)

So there are trade offs, and if people use it wrong, they'll be in for a world of pain, just like people that use vertical thrust at bad times are in for a world of pain.  The trade offs would still be there, they would just look a little different.

[Sicarius_X]

No, unless it will kill all of your fuel and slam you into the ground for 20% of max life damage.

Edited by Sicarius_X, November 21 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[StormTec]

I think an air-dodge would be an interesting thing to add, but I think it would require more of a trade-off than simply letting you do it once/losing upwards thrust.

Actually, I think that, in general, there needs to be something done to expand on the fuel-management of your mech. Even like, say, if your fuel runs dry, you have to wait for it to refill to FULL before you can use any fuel-using abilities (or does that happen already_ I don't remember noticing...); I think that would make people think a little more about how they use their fuel for dodges and hovering. And this layer of energy management, I think, would make air-dodging a bit of balanced trade-off, as it would use more fuel thus putting you more at risk of running out.

But, I suppose, this would then probably require a rebalancing of fuel-recharge/costs.

Sorry, RedVan. Didn't mean to look like I was hijacking your thread for a suggestion of my own! It was just a thought that occurred to me, that I think would relate to your suggestion =]

Edited by StormTec, November 21 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[RedVan]

StormTec, on November 21 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

I think an air-dodge would be an interesting thing to add, but I think it would require more of a trade-off than simply letting you do it once/losing upwards thrust.

Actually, I think that, in general, there needs to be something done to expand on the fuel-management of your mech. Even like, say, if your fuel runs dry, you have to wait for it to refill to FULL before you can use any fuel-using abilities (or does that happen already_ I don't remember noticing...); I think that would make people think a little more about how they use their fuel for dodges and hovering. And this layer of energy management, I think, would make air-dodging a bit of balanced trade-off, as it would use more fuel thus putting you more at risk of running out.

But, I suppose, this would then probably require a rebalancing of fuel-recharge/costs.

Sorry, RedVan. Didn't mean to look like I was hijacking your thread for a suggestion of my own! It was just a thought that occurred to me, that I think would relate to your suggestion =]

No problem
There are ways that air dodge could be balanced to offer more of a trade off, that's what this thread is for, to get peoples feelings on it.

Currently, you do not need to wait for full fuel to utilize jets again, honestly, I think that would slow the game down too much.  It's already very easy to hit a walking target, if you take away the ability to jet/dodge until you reach full fuel, you'd just make a bunch of easy targets.

[D20Face]

I actually think that the increased initial velocity of jumps now fixes all my gripes with verticality in the game.

I'm still for air dodges, but I don't think they're nearly as necessary anymore.

[Ace4225]

RedVan, on November 21 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Dude, I'm a pilot in real life.  So yes, I do know about how ground effect works tyvm.

That's cool. There's still a big difference between knowing how to fly a plane and knowing how to build one.

Anyway, I agree with D20 ultimately; the fixes made to flight are substantial enough that any intrigue I may have had in the idea [which I lost when you started "debating"] are now alleviated by the improved jump/fuel.

[DarkPulse]

Still see no point in it. Still don't want it in the game.

[StormTec]

RedVan, on November 21 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Currently, you do not need to wait for full fuel to utilize jets again, honestly, I think that would slow the game down too much.  It's already very easy to hit a walking target, if you take away the ability to jet/dodge until you reach full fuel, you'd just make a bunch of easy targets.

Don't mean to risk de-railing the thread, but I would argue that it wouldn't. If re-balanced properly, I think it would simply force people to be a bit more smart with their fuel consumption, rather than just mashing dash constantly when in an engagement. The punishment being that you become a very easy target. I just think it would add an extra layer of skill to piloting a mech that is beyond just moving and shooting.

But, yeah, the only reason I am not making a separate thread about this is mainly because it would probably involve a rehaul of the fuel economy of the game, so unlikely to be considered XD

[Ace4225]

nothing is really "unlikely to be considered," keeping in mind that these guys are independent developers and are trying to shape the game based on how the players see it.

But seeing how RedVan is basically standing in a corner, shouting "I'm right and you all are wrong!" to a crowd of opposition, it's unlikely we'll see this particular thread go anywhere.

Edited by Ace4225, November 21 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[thepeopleselbow]

Seems like some folks are tired of hearing opinions that don't agree with them.  Here's my reasons and suspected dev reasons:

1  It's unrealistic compared to reality.  Current flight-physics feel like jets thrusting 60 tons of metal into the air, just barely.

2  It's unrealistic according to dev-reality.  Currently the jets point 1 direction.  If you're pointing them down so you can fly up and then want to zip sideways, you would lose altitude instantly.  Inertia must be respected or the game completely changes to mario brothers.  

Your mech doesn't weigh as much as your house, it weighs as much as 4 bank-vaults, 2 UPS vans full of spam, and a cast-iron gazebo.

3  It's bad for balance: It's already advantageous to jump into the air for various reasons.  Perhaps they'll make a gunship mech that hovers all the time.  Then the people who want flying-tanks will have a happy medium.

[StormTec]

Ace4225, on November 21 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

nothing is really "unlikely to be considered," keeping in mind that these guys are independent developers and are trying to shape the game based on how the players see it.

But seeing how RedVan is basically standing in a corner, shouting "I'm right and you all are wrong!" to a crowd of opposition, it's unlikely we'll see this particular thread go anywhere.

I disagree. I don't think RedVan is doing that at all. In fact, if I may be so bold, I think that's what almost everyone else is doing with regards to his suggestion. His first post contained his suggestion and what he thought it would bring - he wants to see if he could add another purpose to the jets - and he tried to pre-empt some concerns that might be raised against it. Some valid points were indeed raised against it, and they were discussed.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like a pretty reasonable discourse to me. I mean, like, isn't that what this section is for_

Edited by StormTec, November 21 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Titzilla]

Whoever is using sustained thrust when fighting is using their vertical boost wrong. There are still disavantages to flight, as the enemy can boost under you, but throwing un-even boost intervals and random drops in height is great for keeping the opponent on their toes. Sure, it isn't a perfect tactic, but it definitely works well enough if used properly.

I personally don't know how air-dodging would work in terms of gameplay. On one hand it seems like an aspect that I wouldn't want in the game, but on the otherhand it'd make the game faster placed again. CB3 made things feel really slow after all.

[ArnieF4440]

it was TLDR for the thread for me, but here's my 2 cents, I don't want an air dodge. Why_ The thrusters are already in use to levitate your mech. As it stands for CBE3, you can stay in the air longer. I wouldn't mind having it a little bit more maneuverable, but using the jump should be a disadvantage for your mech

[Ace4225]

StormTec, on November 21 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Ace4225, on November 21 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

nothing is really "unlikely to be considered," keeping in mind that these guys are independent developers and are trying to shape the game based on how the players see it.

But seeing how RedVan is basically standing in a corner, shouting "I'm right and you all are wrong!" to a crowd of opposition, it's unlikely we'll see this particular thread go anywhere.

I disagree. I don't think RedVan is doing that at all.

Apparently you didn't see the last thread on this subject he started during CB2... he basically called everyone flat-out "wrong" for disagreeing with him... multiple times. Not to mention insulted their intelligence by repeating himself over and over, thinking we were the ones who didn't understand... arguing all over the place and calling it a "debate."

You can read it for yourself, here:

http://community.pla...-mid-air-dodge/

Edited by Ace4225, November 21 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[Ace4225]

[hit wrong button; ignore]

Edited by Ace4225, November 21 2012 - 03:49 PM.