56 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

Carry over from CBE1 and 2.  I'm interested to see others opinions as it's become quite stale in the other forums.

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air.

Currently jets serve only a couple purposes:
Get on top of buildings
Get an angle for shots

Jetting is not advisable to use while in combat, due to the slow nature of jetting.  You become the easiest target in the world.

How can we change the movement mechanics to incorporate jetting into combat more_

Allow air dodge.

What would this air dodge look like_
1.  Energy use would be the same as ground dodge, if you jet too high and run out of energy, you won't be dodging.
2.  You would only be capable of one air dodge per "hang time".  For example, if you jet over the edge of a bridge, you cant dodge twice on your way down.
3.  Mech would still be subject to dodge cooldown (which would initiate immediately as opposed to upon landing), as well as the split second pause upon landing.
4.  Distance would be limited to that of ground dodge


Critics say:
A.  Not realistic.
a.  It's a video game set long in the future.  Realism is defined by what the devs make it to be.  Yes, it "appears to be weighty" based on movement in the game, however, the simple fact that they can dodge on the ground (air+ground friction), means that they would be fully capable of dodging in the air (only air friction).

B.  It would become Armored Core.
b.  Based on the limitations to this air dodge, you need not fear it being even remotely close to AC.  The only thing that would be similar is the idea of dodging in the air.  This air dodge would be even more restrictive than Unreal Tournament, which has less dodging than AC imo.

C.  The mech would go splat upon landing.
c.  If you can dodge over the edge of a bridge in the current mechanics, and you do not go splat upon landing, how will it be any different if you air dodge, which would naturally be a lesser altitude than a bridge_

D.  The devs would need to change physics and animations.
d.  As I said in point C, the physics and animations are already there.  Dodging over the edge of a bridge would be no way different than jetting up and then dodging.  You are essentially "creating your own bridge" when you jet up.

E.  It will give class A mechs an advantage because they'll be able to escape easier.
e.  Due to the limitations on the dodge, they won't be going any further than they already are able to go.  In fact, they will go less far.  It takes them more energy to jet up than it does for them to jet horizontally, thus, if they burn energy jetting up simply to use an air dodge, they will find themselves landing with little to no energy.

D.  It will make the game too hard for noobs to get good.
d.  I am a firm believer in having a large skill differential.  However, I do know that you cannot alienate the noobs, or the community will die, leaving a few good players to quickly get bored with each other.  Will an air dodge really increase the skill differential that much_  Considering dodge is already in the game, learning to air dodge will be no harder than learning to dodge on the ground.  You simply jet into the air first.  Due to the limitations on the dodge, you will not have "pro" players zipping circles around noob players that don't know up from down yet.  I find it extremely hard to believe that this would increase the skill differential in any substantial way.

E.  You just need to be smart about when you go into the air.
e.  It's not about being smart about going into the air, it's about increasing the utility of jets to more than just getting on top of buildings.  It would encourage more use of jets in combat, thus making combat more dynamic.

I may be missing some things that were brought up, feel free to bring it up again and I will add it to the list.  And by all means, feel free to counter my points.

By adding air dodge, you would be increasing the usefulness of the vertical aspect of the game by reducing the punishment of jetting.  With said mechanics of air dodge, it would still have a significant risk/reward factor to be considered when using it, but it would be a step in the right direction towards incorporating the Z aspect of the game more.

EDIT:  Point E.

Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air. Be smart about choosing when you go into the air.

Fixed that for you.

[BuDeKai]

gonna have to agree with the ajk. this has never been an issue for me. leaving the ground offers you an advantage but it also has to come with some sacrifice, and thats not being able to 180 or dodge. this will likely never be implemented.

[h0B0]

i wouldnt mind having an air dodge mechanic.
But realistically dodging mid air would require more fuel then it requires on land since you have gravity to compensate for, which you "don't" have on land.

I am ok about this as long as mid air dodging requires 2x or more the amount of fuel required to dodge on land.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air. Be smart about choosing when you go into the air.

Fixed that for you.

It's not about being smart when using jets, it's about increasing the utility of the jets for more than what they're used for, thus increasing the overall movement options of the game.

I have no problem with the current mechanics, you've played with me, you should know that   I'm simply looking at options that would increase the usefulness of jets to other than getting on top of buildings.  More movement options would make combat more interesting.

h0B0, on November 20 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

i wouldnt mind having an air dodge mechanic.
But realistically dodging mid air would require more fuel then it requires on land since you have gravity to compensate for, which you "don't" have on land.

I am ok about this as long as mid air dodging requires 2x or more the amount of fuel required to dodge on land.

Yes, you would be burning the energy to jet up, but then you would release your jets and initiate a dodge.  Over all, it would use the same amount of energy if you were to dodge on the ground, then jet up to the same altitude in the prior order.  Essentially, the dodge would send you sideways and downward, as you no longer have the up thrust.  This is also partially what would limit the distance of the dodge (something people were greatly worried about before was mechs being able to fly simply because they have air dodge capability).

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air. Be smart about choosing when you go into the air.

Fixed that for you.

It's not about being smart when using jets, it's about increasing the utility of the jets for more than what they're used for, thus increasing the overall movement options of the game.

I have no problem with the current mechanics, you've played with me, you should know that   I'm simply looking at options that would increase the usefulness of jets to other than getting on top of buildings.  More movement options would make combat more interesting.

I'd rather that they moderately increase air control via normal jetting, than have a gimmicky, illogical air dodge mechanic.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air. Be smart about choosing when you go into the air.

Fixed that for you.

It's not about being smart when using jets, it's about increasing the utility of the jets for more than what they're used for, thus increasing the overall movement options of the game.

I have no problem with the current mechanics, you've played with me, you should know that   I'm simply looking at options that would increase the usefulness of jets to other than getting on top of buildings.  More movement options would make combat more interesting.

I'd rather that they moderately increase air control via normal jetting, than have a gimmicky, illogical air dodge mechanic.

While I dont find air dodge gimmicky or illogical (based on the points I've brought up), I would not be opposed to more air control.  However, if they increase air control to a point where it would be useful to avoid getting shot, I guarantee it would look more gimmicky and illogical than an air dodge.

[RedVan]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

OK.

Well, the other half of me would say this:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

This isn't a problem for me and many other fairly skilled players.

Exactly my point.  Hitting targets in the air should be more of a challenge than it is.

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RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Critics say:
A.  Not realistic.

Yes it is [without adding a second set of jets to the mech]

I'm kinda confused at your point.  I think what you're saying is that, due to only having one set of jets, it would be unrealistic for mechs to dodge in the air_  If so, then tell me, how do mechs dodge on the ground_

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RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

B.  It would become Armored Core.

Considering Armored Core has the exact same set of jet-based abilities, it certainly stands to reason it would begin to feel like Armored Core.

So you're telling me that if you were to take the current hawken dodge, and imagine it while in the air, that is what AC is like_  TBH, from the many many videos i've seen of AC, it's not even close.   guy is flying and dodging all over the place.  I find it hard to believe that, after reviewing how air dodge would look in hawken, you could imagine any similarities between AC and hawken.  They are not the exact same set of jet-based abilities at all.  You can literally fly in AC.  You can't even come close to flight in hawken.

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RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

D.  The devs would need to change physics and animations.
d.  As I said in point C, the physics and animations are already there.  Dodging over the edge of a bridge would be no way different than jetting up and then dodging.  You are essentially "creating your own bridge" when you jet up.

You clearly don't understand how 3D models work, nor how games are programmed. If you just "borrowed" the ground-dodge animation and used it in an air-dodge, the air-dodge would look silly/unrealistic, and would likely not respond to physics correctly.

You are right, I am not a programmer in any way shape or form.  I will say however, when dodging over the edge of a bridge, it does not look silly/unrealistic.  So it is pretty safe to deduce that when you change the altitude giving device (from a bridge, do jets), the resulting dodge is going to look pretty similar.

And if they do need to do some programming to tweak it, that's fine and dandy.  It's their job, they get paid to do things like this

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RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

E.  It will give class A mechs an advantage because they'll be able to escape easier.
e.  Due to the limitations on the dodge, they won't be going any further than they already are able to go.  In fact, they will go less far.

Facts are facts. The dodge distances are the same for all classes, but the Class-A can use dodge more often. Hence, dodging is more effective for Class-A mechs. we're not talking about jumping/boosting, because your proposal is dealing with a dodge move.

Yes, but dodge uses energy.  So if a player eats all their energy up by jetting, and then dodging, they'll be stuck.  Then they can neither jet, dodge, nor boost.  On top of that, class A mechs can already get away easy, so does it really matter if it makes it easier for them to do something that they'd do anyway_

And if it does, then put another limiter on the air dodge mechanic.  Increase the "landing" time for class A mechs.  Make it so if they air dodge, they won't be able to move for another split second after the normal split second you need to wait upon normal landings.

You are welcome to give ideas, you don't need to just try to prove me wrong

[RedVan]

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RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

D.  It will make the game too hard for noobs to get good.
d.  I am a firm believer in having a large skill differential.  However, I do know that you cannot alienate the noobs, or the community will die, leaving a few good players to quickly get bored with each other.

Let me stop you there; you already contradicted yourself.
-the larger the learning curve, the harder it is for noobs to adjust.
-by widening the curve of a game that already has a sharp curve, you will work to alienate new players.
-Congratulations! You've killed the community!

That is not a contradiction, that is exactly what I was saying.  Perhaps continue on to the rest of the point so you dont take things out of context next time.

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Will an air dodge really increase the skill differential that much_  Considering dodge is already in the game, learning to air dodge will be no harder than learning to dodge on the ground.  You simply jet into the air first.  Due to the limitations on the dodge, you will not have "pro" players zipping circles around noob players that don't know up from down yet.  I find it extremely hard to believe that this would increase the skill differential in any substantial way.

You are implying that by adding the ability to dodge in the air is going to somehow drastically widen the skill gap.
I argue that, since dodge is already a part of the game, learning to dodge while in the air is not difficult at all.  It's a matter of holding the space bar for a couple seconds before dodging.  If you believe that is all it takes to greatly increase a skill differential, then gamers are in a very very sad state (probably due to consoles).

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RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

By adding air dodge, you would be increasing the usefulness of the vertical aspect of the game by reducing the punishment of jetting.

You obviously missed the point of jetting. It's supposed to punish you. Jetting is for getting to certain parts of the terrain, not for mid-air maneuvering on a battlefield. Still, some players can make use of the current jet system to jump over opponents and attack them from behind.

And here lies a major difference.  I think jetting should play a larger role on the battle field.  More movement options on the battlefield = more interesting battles.

The given limitations to the air dodge I suggested would not decrease punishment.  It would need to be used just as smartly as jetting, but it would open jetting up to more use in combat.

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Final point: This whole thread just sounds like another n00b-ish complaint from someone who doesn't like the play style of the game and wants to change its dynamics to fit their play style. That's the wrong way to go about suggesting new features.

The right way is figuring out a way to shorten the learning curve; to make the game more competitive for everyone without making anything OP or cheap.

You have just correlated two irrelevant points.  Not liking the play style has nothing to do with shortening learning curves.

You can have a wonderful play style that shortens learning curves, you can have terrible play styles that shorten learning curves....

Either way, no, I love hawken as it is, I just think this could make it even better.  Is it so wrong to suggest a feature that one thinks would make a game better_

Am I not in the suggestion forum_....

Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

That's the thing, you're not supposed to be able to dodge getting shot in the air.
You're supposed to consider whether or not it's worth getting a height advantage and a better angle in trade for mobility.

[Panssarikauha]

In lighter mechs, flying up in the air and strafing to one side when there is a larger battle in a more open area, I find it to be a fairly decent trade-off. Most people prefer heavier mechs and easier targets staying relatively still on the ground, and ofcourse, the better LOS over everything.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

That's the thing, you're not supposed to be able to dodge getting shot in the air.
You're supposed to consider whether or not it's worth getting a height advantage and a better angle in trade for mobility.

Yes, and you would still need to consider that.  While jetting up, you'll still be just as easy a target, if you think you need to dodge to avoid something, you now have the ability to do so.  However, now you need to consider the repercussions of landing.  You'll be a sitting duck on the ground for a split second, where you're even more liable to splash damage due to proximity to the ground.

It would simply become a trade off:  Do I absorb the damage now, or do I avoid by dodging, and open myself up to an unknown factor upon landing_

It would be interesting to see how people make that decision, offering a more dynamic playing field.  Besides, they'll still need to determine if jetting up is worth it in the first place.

[GunsnButter]

Just for weight, going to also agree with AJK. Air dodge is pretty gimmicky... but a little more (like maybe 10 - 15% more) maneuverability while airborne might be justified, especially with the increased fuel tanks everybody got.

[AsianJoyKiller]

By the way, I forgot to ask...

How does suddenly being able to rocket your self in one direction in a multi-ton hunk of metal while in mid-air not seem gimmicky and illogical.

[RedVan]

GunsnButter, on November 20 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Just for weight, going to also agree with AJK. Air dodge is pretty gimmicky... but a little more (like maybe 10 - 15% more) maneuverability while airborne might be justified, especially with the increased fuel tanks everybody got.

Please explain to me how weight would disallow a mech to dodge while in the air.  They can dodge on the ground where they are subject to more friction, why would weight suddenly be a factor for their ability to dodge in the air_

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

By the way, I forgot to ask...

How does suddenly being able to rocket your self in one direction in a multi-ton hunk of metal while in mid-air not seem gimmicky and illogical.

Because they are already capable of doing it on the ground, where they are subject to more friction.  You're essentially saying that by removing ground friction, their jets become less efficient.

If you really want to consider any semblance of physics, when you remove friction, you get more efficiency.  So really, it is gimmicky that they dodge on the ground rather than in the air.

Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

GunsnButter, on November 20 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Just for weight, going to also agree with AJK. Air dodge is pretty gimmicky... but a little more (like maybe 10 - 15% more) maneuverability while airborne might be justified, especially with the increased fuel tanks everybody got.

Please explain to me how weight would disallow a mech to dodge while in the air.  They can dodge on the ground where they are subject to more friction, why would weight suddenly be a factor for their ability to dodge in the air_

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

By the way, I forgot to ask...

How does suddenly being able to rocket your self in one direction in a multi-ton hunk of metal while in mid-air not seem gimmicky and illogical.

Because they are already capable of doing it on the ground, where they are subject to more friction.  You're essentially saying that by removing ground friction, their jets become less efficient.

http://en.wikipedia....ffect_(aircraft)

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 20 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Skylead]

I think it would make air combat too op, you can already juke players by jumping up when they don't expect it and use it to avoid most of the damage from a fortified C class.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

GunsnButter, on November 20 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Just for weight, going to also agree with AJK. Air dodge is pretty gimmicky... but a little more (like maybe 10 - 15% more) maneuverability while airborne might be justified, especially with the increased fuel tanks everybody got.

Please explain to me how weight would disallow a mech to dodge while in the air.  They can dodge on the ground where they are subject to more friction, why would weight suddenly be a factor for their ability to dodge in the air_

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

By the way, I forgot to ask...

How does suddenly being able to rocket your self in one direction in a multi-ton hunk of metal while in mid-air not seem gimmicky and illogical.

Because they are already capable of doing it on the ground, where they are subject to more friction.  You're essentially saying that by removing ground friction, their jets become less efficient.

http://en.wikipedia....ffect_(aircraft)

I literally just came running from the other room to edit my post to give an example of ground effect.  Well, not ground effect exactly, more or less the difference of friction between wheels down and wheels up...  I figured I'd give an example of something I deal with every day irl.  So thank you for bringing it up, it will assist my point wonderfully!

So, ground effect, simply put, is when the wingtip vortices of an aircraft are essentially "killed" by the ground.  These wingtip vortices are considered drag.  When the ground "kills" these vortices, it reduces the overall drag on an aircraft.

Now, imagine an aircraft flying in ground effect, but with wheels on the ground (so, not technically flying, but you get the point).  This aircraft has greater drag now due to surface friction between wheels and runway.  If the pilot retracts the gear, he reduces his friction, this gaining efficiency.

Now, what you're telling me is that a mech, while touching the ground, is capable of dodging, correct_

But you find air dodging gimmicky and illogical because the mech is in the air_  So, this mech is essentially "wheels up" correct_  There is no surface friction between mech and ground correct_  But for some reason it doesn't make sense to you that it would be just as, if not more capable of dodging, when it is in a condition of less friction_

We can somewhat apply ground effect to this (even though there are no airfoils involved).  The air drag around corners of the mech are there regardless of it being on the ground or not correct_  So if it's off, but near the ground, there would be a slight (albeit negligible) cushion of air beneath the mech as result of this "ground effect" correct_  Thus keeping the mech airborne longer, which means longer period of reduced ground friction, thus more efficient jets right_  But somehow, it's gimmicky and illogical to think that a mech would be able to use this increased efficiency to dodge.......

Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

My point is, these mechs aren't built to fly around, so the space in which the benefit from the "ground effect" would be minimal.
It makes it possible for them to dodge and boost while right next to the ground because it helps nullify their incredible weight and reduce friction, but once they are no longer benefiting from that cushion, they lose their jet-based mobility.

[The_Silencer]

So no air 180º turn yet_..

*still downloading*