56 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

My point is, these mechs aren't built to fly around, so the space in which the benefit from the "ground effect" would be minimal.
It makes it possible for them to dodge and boost while right next to the ground because it helps nullify their incredible weight and reduce friction, but once they are no longer benefiting from that cushion, they lose their jet-based mobility.

I think what you're trying to get at is that somehow ground effect is what allows mechs to boost along the ground_

I already mentioned ground effect would be minimal.  Ground effect is directly related to generating lift, lift is caused by wings, mechs dont have wings.  Thus, using ground effect doesn't really help any of your point tbh.  You can essentially negate "ground effect" (if you want to call it that) of mechs because it is so unsubstantial, it's not even worth mentioning.

The bigger issue, which I pointed out in my last post, and many other posts, is that while in the air, the mech will have less overall friction/drag, thus allowing for greater ability to dodge (logically).

Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

My point is, these mechs aren't built to fly around, so the space in which the benefit from the "ground effect" would be minimal.
It makes it possible for them to dodge and boost while right next to the ground because it helps nullify their incredible weight and reduce friction, but once they are no longer benefiting from that cushion, they lose their jet-based mobility.

I think what you're trying to get at is that somehow ground effect is what allows mechs to boost along the ground_

I already mentioned ground effect would be minimal.  Ground effect is directly related to generating lift, lift is caused by wings, mechs dont have wings.  Thus, using ground effect doesn't really help any of your point tbh.  You can essentially negate "ground effect" (if you want to call it that) of mechs because it is so unsubstantial, it's not even worth mentioning.

The bigger issue, which I pointed out in my last post, and many other posts, is that while in the air, the mech will have less overall friction/drag, thus allowing for greater ability to dodge (logically).

However, while they are in the air, all of their thrust is being used to keep them in the air.
While on the ground, they can use all of their thrust to shunt them in different directions. That's why you can dodge on the ground. The jets can exert all their power into making the mech go one direction.

If the mech is flying, you would have to start dropping the second you dodge, because all the required thrust gets put into moving you to the side.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

My point is, these mechs aren't built to fly around, so the space in which the benefit from the "ground effect" would be minimal.
It makes it possible for them to dodge and boost while right next to the ground because it helps nullify their incredible weight and reduce friction, but once they are no longer benefiting from that cushion, they lose their jet-based mobility.

I think what you're trying to get at is that somehow ground effect is what allows mechs to boost along the ground_

I already mentioned ground effect would be minimal.  Ground effect is directly related to generating lift, lift is caused by wings, mechs dont have wings.  Thus, using ground effect doesn't really help any of your point tbh.  You can essentially negate "ground effect" (if you want to call it that) of mechs because it is so unsubstantial, it's not even worth mentioning.

The bigger issue, which I pointed out in my last post, and many other posts, is that while in the air, the mech will have less overall friction/drag, thus allowing for greater ability to dodge (logically).

However, while they are in the air, all of their thrust is being used to keep them in the air.
While on the ground, they can use all of their thrust to shunt them in different directions. That's why you can dodge on the ground. The jets can exert all their power into making the mech go one direction.

If the mech is flying, you would have to start dropping the second you dodge, because all the required thrust gets put into moving you to the side.

Yes!  That is precisely what I've been saying   You start dropping as soon as you begin the dodge.  This helps reduce worries of mechs going zipping across the screen, because.... I dont really know why people would think that actually... lol

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Yes!  That is precisely what I've been saying   You start dropping as soon as you begin the dodge.  This helps reduce worries of mechs going zipping across the screen, because.... I dont really know why people would think that actually... lol

Because you didn't actually mention that, at least not in any clear manner, in your posts.

[FluxX]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air. Be smart about choosing when you go into the air.

Fixed that for you.

This is so true. As it is, flying is for move-ability or dodging incoming rockets (no ground/buildings = less splash damage). But it has an in build drawback of being slow.

It is however still useful in other ways. In CB3 I've seen people jump over rockets I've aimed at their feet a couple of times. Before (in CB2 etc) most would side dash the fire. It's quite interesting that the devs got the jump speed just right that people can jump the rockets.

EDIT. PS, AFAIK "Ground effect" has nothing to do with wings, but lift generating thrust. Birds and helicopters (kind of) use wings to generate thrust, so have a greater effect on the ground pushing down. Planes with horizontal thrust have less ground effect, as their wings push very little wind downwards and their engines are pushing sideways, as most goes across the wing.

Ah, sorry, see I was wrong there. It is wings that give it a greater effect for horizontal movement still, where as hovercraft (no wings) are better at vertical movement.

However, in Hawken, the nozzles to the thrusters pivot. So it's not impossible to angle them to provide both horizontal and vertical thrust.

Edited by FluxX, November 20 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Yes!  That is precisely what I've been saying   You start dropping as soon as you begin the dodge.  This helps reduce worries of mechs going zipping across the screen, because.... I dont really know why people would think that actually... lol

Because you didn't actually mention that, at least not in any clear manner, in your posts.

Sorry, must have been in my CBE2 thread where I mentioned it.  I'll see if I can dig it up for you...

EDIT  Here it is, I edited out some irrelevant parts:

RedVan, on November 19 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

For the mech to dodge mid air, it would have to stop powering its vertical thrusters and point them sideways.  Just as currently, after dodging, the mech must point thrusters downwards to jet up.

...

Given how quickly you'll fall to the ground after releasing your jets, don't you think that greatly limits the distance you'll be able to air dodge_

FluxX, on November 20 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem:  Targets in the air are easy to hit due to no maneuverability.

Solution:  Add ability to dodge while in the air. Be smart about choosing when you go into the air.

Fixed that for you.

This is so true. As it is, flying is for move-ability or dodging incoming rockets (no ground/buildings = less splash damage). But it has an in build drawback of being slow.

It is however still useful in other ways. In CB3 I've seen people jump over rockets I've aimed at their feet a couple of times. Before (in CB2 etc) most would side dash the fire. It's quite interesting that the devs got the jump speed just right that people can jump the rockets.

EDIT. PS, AFAIK "Ground effect" has nothing to do with wings, but lift generating thrust. Birds and helicopters (kind of) use wings to generate thrust, so have a greater effect on the ground pushing down. Planes with horizontal thrust have less ground effect, as their wings push very little wind downwards and their engines are pushing sideways, as most goes across the wing.

Ah, sorry, see I was wrong there. It is wings that give it a greater effect. Then how do hovercraft manage it without wings_

However, in Hawken, the nozzles to the thrusters pivot. So it's not impossible to angle them to provide both horizontal and vertical thrust.

Hovercraft essentially generate downforce similar to a helocopter, but only enough to elevate the vehicle enough to reduce ground friction.

As for ground effect, it is strictly based on wings and how close they are to the ground

Edited by RedVan, November 20 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[The_Silencer]

As side note: Seems to be that they've raised the max. altitude value; thing which is pretty noticeable, for example, on Bazhar (Sahara). And thing which is cool, indeed.

[h0B0]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

h0B0, on November 20 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

i wouldnt mind having an air dodge mechanic.
But realistically dodging mid air would require more fuel then it requires on land since you have gravity to compensate for, which you "don't" have on land.

I am ok about this as long as mid air dodging requires 2x or more the amount of fuel required to dodge on land.

Yes, you would be burning the energy to jet up, but then you would release your jets and initiate a dodge.  Over all, it would use the same amount of energy if you were to dodge on the ground, then jet up to the same altitude in the prior order.  Essentially, the dodge would send you sideways and downward, as you no longer have the up thrust.  This is also partially what would limit the distance of the dodge (something people were greatly worried about before was mechs being able to fly simply because they have air dodge capability).

Thank you for understanding my point of vue and explaining things clearly, for a moment i thought i wasnt clear and could easily have been misinterpreted

[Joebeans]

Lol air dodge is just silly. However I would like to see a more realistic fall when you turn your thrusters of. It may just be me but I feel like I get a second of air time before I drop when I turn my thrusters off... I think these things should drop like bricks lol well they are heavy... But air dodge is a pointless ability and I would imagine it using up loads of your power just to keep you in the air.

Maybe a mech that was designed to hover off the ground would need an air dodge ability lol

Edited by Joebeans, November 20 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Ollie]

+1 ajk.

Do not want air dodge.  Am not playing Transformers.

[Dullahan]

I gotta say I'm generally not in favor of an air dodge.  

The only exception would be if once you use it, your thrusters cut out until you hit the ground. So you jet off in one direction or the other, but immediately start falling and cant use space to hover or shift+a/d to dodge again until your big ole mech feet touch the ground.

Might make you think more strategically about when is best to use it, and it would help balance it so it's not too powerful an addition.

[Ace4225]

RedVan, on November 20 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Hovercraft essentially generate downforce similar to a helocopter, but only enough to elevate the vehicle enough to reduce ground friction.

As for ground effect, it is strictly based on wings and how close they are to the ground

Don't you just love how this guy just seems to know everything about everything... including an idea that hasn't even been tried yet_

Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch...

[Ruzhyo]

Ollie, on November 20 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Do not want air dodge.  Am not playing Transformers.

That's just silly. The game already has a dodge function built in, at this point its breaking reality by making it unavailable if your feet aren't touching the ground.
Say you're driving a car and you go off a cliff. While in mid air you can still turn the steering wheel can't you_ It'd be the same thing with a mech. If you can thruster sideways with your feet touching the ground, there is absolutely no excuse besides arbitrary game mechanics to limit you from doing so while in the air.

But the biggest argument in favor of air dodging for me is simply that it would be significantly more intuitive than the current implementation. I have tried to air dodge several times before, just assuming it would work.

[Cyclonus]

Ruzhyo, on November 20 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Ollie, on November 20 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Do not want air dodge.  Am not playing Transformers.

Say you're driving a car and you go off a cliff. While in mid air you can still turn the steering wheel can't you_

You won't go anywhere except down.

[Ruzhyo]

Cyclonus, on November 20 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Ruzhyo, on November 20 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Say you're driving a car and you go off a cliff. While in mid air you can still turn the steering wheel can't you_

You won't go anywhere except down.

Quite right. But that doesn't change the fact that you can do it. Your tires touching the ground isn't a requirement for the steering wheel turning them. Your mech's feet on the ground shouldn't be a requirement for using your side thrusters.

[Ace4225]

but you're not using "side thrusters." You're using the same thrusters you use to sustain your jump height.

You'd have to fall anyway before turning them to dodge. Ultimately, I don't see the point, unless they completely redesign the mechs into something more AC-like... which the AC resemblance was mentioned a cagillion times in the last thread this guy made about this topic [even though he fails to see it]

Just face it, RedVan. It's not going to happen.

Edited by Ace4225, November 20 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Ruzhyo]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

but you're not using "side thrusters." You're using the same thrusters you use to sustain your jump height.

Not when falling. I'd be alright with a restricting air dodges and boosts to not work simultaneously.

EDIT: Also note, if you dodge forward and then boost upwards immediately afterward, you keep a good deal of your forward momentum. Why couldn't you do that the other way around_

Edited by Ruzhyo, November 20 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Ace4225]

because the jets point slightly forward.

[Ruzhyo]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

because the jets point slightly forward.

So what's stopping you from boosting upwards then jetting forwards_

[Ace4225]

that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about side-dodging.