55 replies to this topic

[Urvanis]

Necro, on November 20 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Does the mini flak have a more of a spread the more you fire_

It does, and rapidly. After 2 shots the spread is about the same as the regular flak. Its kinda like an assault flak.

Edited by Urvanis, November 21 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[h0B0]

I had a chance to try the TOW this morning and it does the same damage as the garage sais : 185. thought i would let you know.

[defekt]

Urvanis, on November 21 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Necro, on November 20 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Does the mini flak have a more of a spread the more you fire_

It does, and rapidly. After 2 shots the spread is about the same as the regular flak. Its kinda like an assault flak.

It does_  Never noticed.  Will pay more attention next time.  

[D20Face]

I'm making some excel documents right now with the significant numbers.

I'm also going to make assumptions based on the cruddy numbers we have in-game to show how little they mean in a separate section.

[DarkPulse]

Saunders, on November 20 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

This is amazing, dudes, you rock!

We'll be making some weapon balance changes soon (hopefully we can roll them out VERY soon).  I'll try and let you guys know when that happens so you can adjust this page (and others).

We made a bunch of changes to fundamental weapon systems for CBE3 (including things like weapon damage range, spread change over time for some weapons, heat changes, min explosion damage for things like the EOC, etc etc etc).  

I suspect some things will feel a bit out of whack in the short-term, but definitely let us know what you think as we make adjustments - you're an awesome resource for gut-checking all this stuff

Soon!
<3 Saunders

Great to hear! But you can help us out even more by allowing us to peek at the numbers again, rather than have us guesstimate and dig for them.

That said, having looked at the numbers, my thoughts:

• SMC: Untouched from CBE2.
  
• AR: Got a damage uptick, but a shots/second downtick, and it also seems to be rougher on heat generation (overheating about a second faster). Before, it used to be slightly stronger than SMC, but now it's noticeably weaker; if anything this should be reversed (so that the SMC is the one that is weaker).
  
• Vulcan: What can I say_ Absolutely neutered. Still does decent DPS but it's absolutely murderous in terms of heat now, to the point that it's not worth it. Probably just try reducing the heat generation back to where it was in CBE2; I think that plus the reduction in damage (it used to be 14 per bullet IIRC) should be enough to please most of the people who felt it was too strong.
  
• SA Hawkins: Now it's useful. The problem is it's somehow more useful than the Slug Rifle and that should not happen. You're in the right ballpark with one firing twice as fast but doing half the damage per shot, but the heat efficiency is way out of whack on the Slug Rifle for its damage. Also, obviously, Slug got nerfed kind of hard for its usual firing rate.
  
• Slug Rifle: Slight damage nerf, but massive heat generation. Why_ 13.9 heat every single second, for a gun that does 65 damage a shot, with a speed of 1.3 shots/second_ If you want to make the gun generate that much heat, these bullets need to kick way more ass - like 105 damage or something. Since I don't think you want it that high, the heat on this needs to go down so it'd be roughly parallel to the Hawkins, or else the damage needs a fair uptick, at least back to near its original level (which was 80).
  
• Sabot: 160 damage. Fires every five seconds. Meanwhile, I can peck the guy 6 times with the SA Hawkins and do more damage, in about half the time, albeit with much higher heat. So what's the point of this gun now..._ If it's really only going to do 160 damage, the fire rate needs to be something like 3 seconds or so. Otherwise, the damage needs to go way up, because there's almost no reason to shoot it now.
  
• Mini-Flak: ...Why does this get to do more DPS than its big brother_ This thing gets to fire 5 times in two seconds, whereas its big brother only gets to fire twice. It has a way higher DPS than the main flak cannon, to the point that you'd not pick the larger version if you could choose between the two. If it's going to fire this fast, the damage needs to go considerably down; a better idea though is probably to reduce the rate it fires at, to something like 1.75 seconds perhaps. The main Flak Cannon should generally have the higher DPS as it's a heavier weapon.
  
• Flak: Same thing as the Vulcan: It generates ridiculous amounts of heat now. You'd better hope all those shots hit, because if they don't, you will be overheating and you will be screwed.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 21 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[D20Face]

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Mini-Flak: ...Why does this get to do more DPS than its big brother_ This thing gets to fire 5 times in two seconds, whereas its big brother only gets to fire twice. It has a way higher DPS than the main flak cannon, to the point that you'd not pick the larger version if you could choose between the two. If it's going to fire this fast, the damage needs to go considerably down; a better idea though is probably to reduce the rate it fires at, to something like 1.75 seconds perhaps. The main Flak Cannon should generally have the higher DPS as it's a heavier weapon.

This comment right here is why I'm doing my essay.

Smaller weapons should have more DPS. Larger burstier weapons should have higher DPS at the point of the first two-three shots, even on the third-fourth, and lower from the fifth on.

DPS of weapons is staggered at impact points, by having different rate weapons you can control which scenarios are favorable for different types of weapons. Generally that means close range burst weapons, mid range auto DPS, and long range lower damage bursts. There are a number of reasons for these but it's easier to explain with graphs. I've decided to ditch excel for the graphs.

[Timber_Wolf]

I pretty much agree with darkpulse.  The only thing I might disagree -slightly- on is the hawkins and mini flak.  I'm not too sure how the spread works between the flak and miniflak.  I thought the flak had less spread than the mini, making it better at range and the TOW more friendly.

I think that makes them petty even if so.  But, I need to test it.

[defekt]

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

• Sabot: 160 damage. Fires every five seconds. Meanwhile, I can peck the guy 6 times with the SA Hawkins and do more damage, in about half the time, albeit with much higher heat. So what's the point of this gun now..._ If it's really only going to do 160 damage, the fire rate needs to be something like 3 seconds or so. Otherwise, the damage needs to go way up, because there's almost no reason to shoot it now.

Flawed reasoning.  The Sabot delivers instant, entirely front-loaded damage to any target at any range whereas the Hawkins delivers more DPS but requires the target to remain in your sights for a much longer period of time.  As you are fully aware, the SS is the mech that lays on its damage to targets at any range that are often only visible for very brief moments, and the Sabot is still pretty much the only weapon that can do this.  Merely comparing DPS for all forms of battle is not only misrepresentative it's borderline incorrect.

[DarkPulse]

defekt, on November 21 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Flawed reasoning.  The Sabot delivers instant, entirely front-loaded damage to any target at any range whereas the Hawkins delivers more DPS but requires the target to remain in your sights for a much longer period of time.  As you are fully aware, the SS is the mech that lays on its damage to targets at any range that are often only visible for very brief moments, and the Sabot is still pretty much the only weapon that can do this.  Merely comparing DPS for all forms of battle is not only misrepresentative it's borderline incorrect.

I have less issue with the DPS as I do with the fact that it got a damage de-buff with virtually nothing done to offset that damage de-buff. Plus, the simple fact is that with the de-buff, while it can still strike from a fair distance, it's comparatively weaker compared to the two primary weapons. Therefore, I feel either the damage needs to be ticked back up, or else the cooldown delay reduced. 185 damage was already the weakest secondary weapon, now it's 160. A frickin' HE Grenade does more! (At least, it will assuming they didn't touch the damage from its 185 in CBE2.)

Aside from the Rocketeer, I can't think of any other class whose primary weapons even come close to outputting the damage the secondary weapon does so quickly. Maybe the Infiltrator, but even that requires two pinpoint, charged HEAT shots.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 21 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[defekt]

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

I have less issue with the DPS as I do with the fact that it got a damage de-buff with virtually nothing done to offset that damage de-buff. Plus, the simple fact is that with the de-buff, while it can still strike from a fair distance, it's comparatively weaker compared to the two primary weapons. Therefore, I feel either the damage needs to be ticked back up, or else the cooldown delay reduced. 185 damage was already the weakest secondary weapon, now it's 160. A frickin' HE Grenade does more! (At least, it will assuming they didn't touch the damage from its 185 in CBE2.)

Why should balancing any weapon or item be grounds for demanding compensation_  That's not how balancing works; if something is too effective it gets reigned in a bit.

You see this is the point I'm trying to make, where you compare raw numbers whilst neglecting to consider other crucial factors: The primary weapons are still pretty well front-loaded damage compared to other primary weapons available in the game; what more do you want_  In addition, the HE nade has a reliable, accurate range of 20 yards whereas the Sabot has a reliable, accurate range of- the entire frickin' gaming world.  Yes, the HE nade damn well should do more damage, not only for the very limited range reason but also because it is (well, was - sadly) a finite resource; you should get more bang for your situational buck.

As I've said before, I thought that Sabot damage was okay in CB2.  Making it non-hitscan would have been enough to keep it punishing people who sit still for too long commensurate with keeping it sane vs moving targets.  That keeps the weapon doing good damage, punishing the mistakes of others, whilst simultaneously raising the skill ceiling on the weapon by virtue of learning how to lead your targets.  HEAT cannon users will tell you a thing or two about picking up that skill; it's not the end of the world by any means.

Edit: Obligatory typos.

Edited by defekt, November 21 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[DarkPulse]

defekt, on November 21 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Why should balancing any weapon or item be grounds for demanding compensation_  That's not how balancing works; if something is too effective it gets reigned in a bit.

I don't think there was anyone but the Fight Club Irregulars complaining shout Sharpshooter as of CBE2. The Sharpshooter hate was mostly a CBE1 thing, and I saw a heck of a lot less of them in CBE2.

Put more simply, I'm wondering why they decided to nerf it at all. A Sharpshooter isn't exactly the class to pick if you want to go on a "give me your gibs" killing spree.

defekt, on November 21 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

You see this is the point I'm trying to make, where you compare raw numbers whilst neglecting to consider other crucial factors: The primary weapons are still pretty well front-loaded damage compared to other primary weapons available in the game; what more do you want_  In addition, the HE nade has a reliable, accurate range of 20 yards whereas the Sabot has a reliable, accurate range of- the entire frickin' gaming world.  Yes, the HE nade damn well should do more damage, not only for the very limited range reason but also because it is (well, was - sadly) a finite resource; you should get more bang for your situational buck.

While that much is true, we're talking a straight-up 25 damage nerf for no change in cooldown. The Slug Rifle also got a similar nerf (down from 80 to 65) but unlike the CBE2 version it fires faster and has way higher heat gain. The SA Hawkins is now useful, but it's almost too useful; a player is rewarded more for good aim by using the Hawkins as opposed to the Slug Rifle. Furthermore, it does seem their accuracy is way off from before; even when zoomed in, it seemed simply harder to land shots I should have hit, and even when I was, tons of recoil kept kicking my view up with every shot.

All in all, it is simply no longer fun to play - or viable. I forced myself to use him for one match and went something like 10-3, which was dead last on my team. I never score that low with the sharpshooter if I am doing a full match, ever.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 21 2012 - 11:15 AM.

[Necro]

D20Face, on November 21 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Mini-Flak: ...Why does this get to do more DPS than its big brother_ This thing gets to fire 5 times in two seconds, whereas its big brother only gets to fire twice. It has a way higher DPS than the main flak cannon, to the point that you'd not pick the larger version if you could choose between the two. If it's going to fire this fast, the damage needs to go considerably down; a better idea though is probably to reduce the rate it fires at, to something like 1.75 seconds perhaps. The main Flak Cannon should generally have the higher DPS as it's a heavier weapon.

This comment right here is why I'm doing my essay.

Smaller weapons should have more DPS. Larger burstier weapons should have higher DPS at the point of the first two-three shots, even on the third-fourth, and lower from the fifth on.

DPS of weapons is staggered at impact points, by having different rate weapons you can control which scenarios are favorable for different types of weapons. Generally that means close range burst weapons, mid range auto DPS, and long range lower damage bursts. There are a number of reasons for these but it's easier to explain with graphs. I've decided to ditch excel for the graphs.

Thank you, a weapon that hit's like a truck and does 500 damage in one shot but only fire every 5 seconds only does 100 dps but it's damn powerful  every 5 seconds.

Dps is not everything!

Edited by Necro, November 21 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Interrobang]

I'm really disappointed with the changes overall and believe it has ruined the game. It seems like they were in a hurry to make the changes and ended up making everything way more imbalanced. Many weapons are now utterly useless, like the sabot rifle which no longer has hitscan, has decreased damage, and incredibly poor accuracy. I realize it's closed beta but they need to be very methodical and careful with these balance changes, rather than trying to change everything at once.

[fwip]

I went ahead and threw together a quick little graph based on the numbers in the first post. Lines terminate when they've reached 100 heat (no heat decay modeled, though).

The initial 5 seconds or so are the most interesting, as slower weapons have the advantage until about that point. Also, don't forget that it's easier to make time for two-three flak shots than keep your reticle trained on the target for the same duration.

Edit: Sorry about the yellow SA Hawkins. It's in between the green and red lines, there.

Edited by fwip, November 21 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[IguanaMGT]

I agreee with Interrobang. I have a question, though: what's a "hitscan" which Sabot no longer has_

[TheChaffeemancer]

Hitscan means no travel time. The bullet goes exactly where you're pointing it at instantly.

[Thygon]

Anyone know stats for grenade launcher_ Just saw an infiltrator with it taking people down like hay.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Thygon, on November 21 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Anyone know stats for grenade launcher_ Just saw an infiltrator with it taking people down like hay.

REV GL or the normal special weapon GL_

[defekt]

fwip, on November 21 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

I went ahead and threw together a quick little graph based on the numbers in the first post. Lines terminate when they've reached 100 heat (no heat decay modeled, though).

The initial 5 seconds or so are the most interesting, as slower weapons have the advantage until about that point. Also, don't forget that it's easier to make time for two-three flak shots than keep your reticle trained on the target for the same duration.

Edit: Sorry about the yellow SA Hawkins. It's in between the green and red lines, there.

I'm assuming that the Flak and Mini-Flak work under very similar mechanics but looking at that the Mini-Flak is just flat out better than the Flak.  On what planet does that make any sense_  I thought the point of the Mini-Flak was less damage but a narrower focus over range making it better than the Flak at medium distance but worse point blank.  Strange.

You know, I'm beginning to lose faith in all this, particularly in a game that allows the fastest and most agile frames to pack the most damaging point blank weapons in the game.  (Just wait until the Sniper makes a return - or maybe not given the state of the Sabot and Slug now.)  It was an interesting idea, having a fixed set of weapons that do not vary irrespective of what frame they're mounted on, but for me it's just not really panning out all that well when put into practice; it will be the devil's own nightmare to balance, assuming balance can be achieved at all.  If this game does venture into the eSports arena I foresee teams populated exclusively by A-class mechs, unless some artificial rules are put in place to require a certain number of other mech classes in a team.  Once players have got a bit of skill under their belts the Bs and Cs may end up being second and third tier choices respectively, particularly now that the Cs are even slower than they were (and are still effectively without useful abilities).  Yeah, yeah, I know: it's free so I don't have to play it if I don't like it.  The thing is, I did like it.

CB3 is testing my faith in ways that I never thought it would.  I'm wavering.  "Oh Father Hawken, what must I do to reinvigorate my faith_"  

[Thygon]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Thygon, on November 21 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Anyone know stats for grenade launcher_ Just saw an infiltrator with it taking people down like hay.

REV GL or the normal special weapon GL_

Dunno, I guess he used that secondary weapon that infil has. He might have used it with HE, but he killed me while I was in the air a couple of times.

And did a helluva lot of damage btw with it.

Edited by Thygon, November 21 2012 - 02:45 PM.